(March 2, 2018 at 2:15 pm)stretch3172 Wrote: ...God is the eternal, unchanging, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who existed prior to the cosmos, brought the cosmos into existence, and rules as its undisputed Ruler (cf. Col 1:17). He possesses a will, intellect, and emotions; He transcends all natural conceptions of physical reality yet is also immanent within physical reality. His essence and nature preclude the possibility of understanding Him fully, but He reveals many of His attributes by means of the created universe and His Word.

Have another go, this time make it coherent and falsifiable.

Good luck.

(March 2, 2018 at 2:15 pm)stretch3172 Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 11:39 am)Whateverist Wrote: I think they really, really want to know (beyond the "I am what I am" answer).  But unless they suspect they've been taken I can't see why they'd want to ask an atheist that question.

But stretch, if you'd like to give us your definition that is something I'd really like to know too.  If possible, consider how you'd define a light bulb, or romantic love or the internal combustion machine and be as specific as possible.

This is admittedly a tough one to answer, since most definitions of this kind are found inadequate when examined closely enough. That said, here's my take:

God is the eternal, unchanging, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who existed prior to the cosmos, brought the cosmos into existence, and rules as its undisputed Ruler (cf. Col 1:17). He possesses a will, intellect, and emotions; He transcends all natural conceptions of physical reality yet is also immanent within physical reality. His essence and nature preclude the possibility of understanding Him fully, but He reveals many of His attributes by means of the created universe and His Word.

Existed before the universe.  Created billions upon billions of galaxies.  Our little insignificant solar system formed about 4.571 billion years ago, give or take a millienia or two.  After 4,497,500,000 years, about 2.5 million years ago, a bunch of bipedal primates starting making stone tools, so - this creature thought that it would watch a while?  After another 4,497,490,000 years - about 10 thousand years ago, give or take a few, a little Semitic tribe starting making up stories about their war god.  Did it decide they were talking about it and start taking over their brain processes?  They wrote down tall tales about it and claimed god spoke to them.  
   This brings up hundreds of questions, such as why these "inspired" works include events that clearly never happened, and how the creator of billions of galaxies wouldn't "inspire" those taking his dictation to say what a star actually is.  But my biggest question is always "if this omnipotent, omniscient creature can communicate via fantasy, then why not communicate with ALL humans?  Why wait 2,490,000 years to say hello, and why say hello to a tiny tribe living in an area smaller than Lake Michigan?  If it wanted to be known and worshiped, (another ridiculous attribute) then it would be beyond simple for it to communicate with every primate on the planet.  That would have avoided a LOT of bloodshed, which any omniscient creature would know would happen before it set off the Big Bang.
   
We have thousands of years of history of humans killing each other over which imaginary friend is the coolest, and the most powerful creature in the cosmos, who numbers the hair on our heads and knows our every thought, is incapable of stopping it.  Incapable of saying "stop killing each other".  Incapable of stopping its priests and preachers from raping kids in its own house.  And there is not one shred of evidence for its existence to be found, anywhere.

(March 2, 2018 at 4:07 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 2:15 pm)stretch3172 Wrote: This is admittedly a tough one to answer, since most definitions of this kind are found inadequate when examined closely enough. That said, here's my take:

God is the eternal, unchanging, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who existed prior to the cosmos, brought the cosmos into existence, and rules as its undisputed Ruler (cf. Col 1:17). He possesses a will, intellect, and emotions; He transcends all natural conceptions of physical reality yet is also immanent within physical reality. His essence and nature preclude the possibility of understanding Him fully, but He reveals many of His attributes by means of the created universe and His Word.

Did god know you were going to type this, before you typed it?

Yes. So?

(February 28, 2018 at 11:41 pm)stretch3172 Wrote: Thank you in advance for your time and willingness to help me out with this project!

YW, you've earned it.




Preliminary Background:
What is your age?  65

What is your current academic status (student, former student, alumnus, etc.)?  
BA in philosophy, MA in education in a time long, long ago
 
Why are (were) you in college?  
I don't come from a family that goes to college so I did it in fits and starts.  Some right after HS, then JC in late 20s, then BA from UC Berkeley 30 years ago and the MA maybe 20 years ago.  
 
What are your future plans/goals?  
I'm retired after teaching mathematics to young people for 25 years.  Now I'm active in horticultural circles and have made (and continue to make) a large garden.

Briefly describe your family background. 
My father was in the military and my mother had and mostly raised 7 children for him while he away at sea in the navy.  My father had a difficult childhood, had almost no social awareness and was very religious.  My mother was a HS drop out but an empathic whiz and articulate.  Most of my family is religious except for myself and my youngest brother.

 
Social Structures
Describe your current relationship with your family.
I'm close with my youngest brother and his 20 years younger wife and young kids.  I'm closer still with my 10 years older wife who was raised without religion and has no interest in the subject.  My stepson lives nearby and checks in fairly regularly, but he's in a new career and we're not demanding.

Describe your social life. 
Cook meals for and play cards with my wife every day (when she is home) and walk the furry kids every day.  Have lots of gardening friends in a number of organizations, lots of art friends through my wife, and am acquiring new friends at the Y now that I go a few times every week.  
We see family other than my youngest brother and stepson infrequently but we get along fine when we do.  It has always bothered me that they home school in order to control their kids social circle.  If Christians want to be included in the broader society it would be nice if they would invest in the public schools.  
 
Are close relationships with friends/family important? Why or why not?
Yep.  But I'm also someone who values regular solitude.  I find I get an agreeable mix of both.
 
Which is more important: the personal life or the professional life?
The personal and by a wide margin.  I've enjoyed and excelled at teaching but I don't find I miss it.  It is possible to get one's fill of almost anything.
 

Ontological
What is the source of power and success?  
Effort and disposition play a roll but the circumstances of ones upbringing are too huge to ignore.
 
What is the origin of the universe? 
Who knows?  I suspect this universe is part of a larger -verse in which bangs happen possibly forever and probably everywhere.  But the ultimate answers are likely beyond our frame of reference.  Though I enjoy learning about the latest discoveries as much as the next person my hunch is that a complete answer will always elude us.  That neither surprises me nor disappoints me.
 
What is the origin and destiny of humanity? 
No one knows.  I feel as strongly aligned with the web of life on this planet as I do our species.  Our extinction if it should come concerns me less than that life itself continue as long as possible, a finite thing nonetheless.  It is obvious that we've arrived here by way of the lineage which includes the apes.  If we resist our own power to destroy the planet's capacity to support life, I pray that we will not escape this petri dish to infect other planets.  I'd rather we did not become galactic viruses of destruction.  We should get it right here or vanish.
 
Is there any form of spiritual dimension of reality? If so, briefly describe it. 
I have no trouble attaching meaning to such words as "soul" and "spirit", but I prefer the former.  Spiritual aspirations all seem escapist to me.  Soul on the other hand has to do with what you have and what you are, I just don't see it as having any other manifestation beyond the living body, either before or after life.
 
Do incorporeal beings exist? 
One can argue that we, in our sense of identity, are such beings in that we are psychic constructions which our bodies assemble in just the way it does the body in the womb and after.  Very likely our psyches do or can assemble other entities as well which remain unconscious to ourselves.  If "God" were one of these constructions, then it might be possible for people so constituted to 'commune' with this entity and gain insight and self knowledge not readily available consciously.  If so, then "God" and ones "ego" would have the same existential status, though one would be much more familiar than the other.
 
How do you define ‘God’? 
It seems to go by a number of names and descriptions among those who belief in Him/Her/Them/It.  The only sense I can make of the word is what I just described.
 
How do you define ‘truth’?
Truth is a correspondence between representation and the state of affairs described whether in words, pictures or anything else.
 

Epistemological
How do you know what is true?
For empirical matters science is the gold standard, which isn't to say it can't be mistaken on occasion.  For the bulk of ones operational knowledge we all settle for a good deal less all the time.  I think even questions involving ourselves sometimes demand discovery.  Life is full of mysteries, but fortunately not outright absurdities.
 
Is there an objective standard by virtue of which one can distinguish truth and falsity, and if so, why is it a reliable standard?
Judgement is always required.  But science is the way in matters empirical, experience (sometimes augmented by researching the thinking of others) must suffice often enough.  I'll even speak up for the value of reflection; even some of us who don't address our depths as "God" can find answers there sometimes.
 
Assuming no objective truth exists, how can you correctly form and evaluate truth claims? 
You cannot always do so, not every truth claim lends itself to certainty - not even in empirical matters where we do not always have access to all the facts.  We should remain humble enough to recognize our limitations.  "I don't know" is sometimes the closest one can come to the truth. 
 

Axiology
Are morals and ethics subjective or objective? 
You won't find them in any authoritative reference book but there is obviously much agreement regarding morals.  Our access to morality is filtered by our own subjective limitations but by and large we do all get to similar conclusions usually.  I believe the place of morality is entirely comprehensible as arising naturally in a animal as gregarious as ourselves.
  
How do you know right from wrong?
Experience and reflection.
 
Can science explain the origin of moral values and concerns? How so?
Yes, I think so by way of evolution.
 
How would you describe a “good person”? A “bad person”?
I wouldn't.  Morally there are better persons and worse persons.  A better person avoids dismissing worse persons as altogether bad.  Better persons care for other people and treat them in a robust thou-manner, not as means to an end.
 
What would an “ideal society” look like?
An ideal society would be one that takes seriously our place in the web of life and did not try allocate every resource to maximizing our footprint on the planet.  We are a long way from there.  As much as I like individual people, there are way too many of us. 

Do people act purely out of self-interest?
You can always examine peoples motives in that light, but from the inside few would think they always do.  I infer from that that that the answer is no.  
 
What is the most important moral attribute (i.e. love, justice, equality, selflessness, etc.)? How do you define it?
That would require a complex, spectral answer which would likely vary by circumstance.  Concern for a something beyond our and our in-group's needs is nice to find.
 
What is mankind’s single biggest problem?
Our blindness to our mutual dependence on the wider web of life and our ability to extract resources needed by all.  That and our susceptibility to unreasoned impulses which we've also inherited.  Who would have thought you could get so powerful that you could break the petri dish that contains you?  
 

Is there a solution to this problem, and if so, what is it?
A miracle.  

(March 2, 2018 at 4:56 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Existed before the universe.  Created billions upon billions of galaxies.  Our little insignificant solar system formed about 4.571 billion years ago, give or take a millienia or two.  After 4,497,500,000 years, about 2.5 million years ago, a bunch of bipedal primates starting making stone tools, so - this creature thought that it would watch a while?  After another 4,497,490,000 years - about 10 thousand years ago, give or take a few, a little Semitic tribe starting making up stories about their war god.  Did it decide they were talking about it and start taking over their brain processes?  They wrote down tall tales about it and claimed god spoke to them.  
   This brings up hundreds of questions, such as why these "inspired" works include events that clearly never happened, and how the creator of billions of galaxies wouldn't "inspire" those taking his dictation to say what a star actually is.  But my biggest question is always "if this omnipotent, omniscient creature can communicate via fantasy, then why not communicate with ALL humans?  Why wait 2,490,000 years to say hello, and why say hello to a tiny tribe living in an area smaller than Lake Michigan?  If it wanted to be known and worshiped, (another ridiculous attribute) then it would be beyond simple for it to communicate with every primate on the planet.  That would have avoided a LOT of bloodshed, which any omniscient creature would know would happen before it set off the Big Bang.We have thousands of years of history of humans killing each other over which imaginary friend is the coolest, and the most powerful creature in the cosmos, who numbers the hair on our heads and knows our every thought, is incapable of stopping it.  Incapable of saying "stop killing each other".  Incapable of stopping its priests and preachers from raping kids in its own house.  And there is not one shred of evidence for its existence to be found, anywhere.

Several of your questions are based on ill-conceived presuppositions. For one, even according to the basic evolutionary narrative, the human line did not even begin to evolve separately from the other great apes until about 4.4 million years ago (granted its been awhile since my last anthropology class, but I know that no one believes protohumans were here to understand "hello" 2 billion years ago). That said, my answer to your question is that God has communicated with all humans by revealing Himself through natural creation, conscience, morality, and human reason. This is what Christians call "general revelation." By contrast, "special revelation" is God's more direct means of communicating with humanity, which takes place through His Word. Your question itself presupposes that you have the right to dictate how God should communicate, which is false. General revelation is common to all people, but only those who respond to it and honestly seek after God can come to know and understand Him.

(March 2, 2018 at 5:08 pm)stretch3172 Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 4:07 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Did god know you were going to type this, before you typed it?

Yes. So?

No free will for you then.

(March 2, 2018 at 5:17 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 11:41 pm)stretch3172 Wrote: Thank you in advance for your time and willingness to help me out with this project!

YW, you've earned it.




Preliminary Background:
What is your age?  65

What is your current academic status (student, former student, alumnus, etc.)?  
BA in philosophy, MA in education in a time long, long ago
 
Why are (were) you in college?  
I don't come from a family that goes to college so I did it in fits and starts.  Some right after HS, then JC in late 20s, then BA from UC Berkeley 30 years ago and the MA maybe 20 years ago.  
 
What are your future plans/goals?  
I'm retired after teaching mathematics to young people for 25 years.  Now I'm active in horticultural circles and have made (and continue to make) a large garden.

Briefly describe your family background. 
My father was in the military and my mother had and mostly raised 7 children for him while he away at sea in the navy.  My father had a difficult childhood, had almost no social awareness and was very religious.  My mother was a HS drop out but an empathic whiz and articulate.  Most of my family is religious except for myself and my youngest brother.

 
Social Structures
Describe your current relationship with your family.
I'm close with my youngest brother and his 20 years younger wife and young kids.  I'm closer still with my 10 years older wife who was raised without religion and has no interest in the subject.  My stepson lives nearby and checks in fairly regularly, but he's in a new career and we're not demanding.

Describe your social life. 
Cook meals for and play cards with my wife every day (when she is home) and walk the furry kids every day.  Have lots of gardening friends in a number of organizations, lots of art friends through my wife, and am acquiring new friends at the Y now that I go a few times every week.  
We see family other than my youngest brother and stepson infrequently but we get along fine when we do.  It has always bothered me that they home school in order to control their kids social circle.  If Christians want to be included in the broader society it would be nice if they would invest in the public schools.  
 
Are close relationships with friends/family important? Why or why not?
Yep.  But I'm also someone who values regular solitude.  I find I get an agreeable mix of both.
 
Which is more important: the personal life or the professional life?
The personal and by a wide margin.  I've enjoyed and excelled at teaching but I don't find I miss it.  It is possible to get one's fill of almost anything.
 

Ontological
What is the source of power and success?  
Effort and disposition play a roll but the circumstances of ones upbringing are too huge to ignore.
 
What is the origin of the universe? 
Who knows?  I suspect this universe is part of a larger -verse in which bangs happen possibly forever and probably everywhere.  But the ultimate answers are likely beyond our frame of reference.  Though I enjoy learning about the latest discoveries as much as the next person my hunch is that a complete answer will always elude us.  That neither surprises me nor disappoints me.
 
What is the origin and destiny of humanity? 
No one knows.  I feel as strongly aligned with the web of life on this planet as I do our species.  Our extinction if it should come concerns me less than that life itself continue as long as possible, a finite thing nonetheless.  It is obvious that we've arrived here by way of the lineage which includes the apes.  If we resist our own power to destroy the planet's capacity to support life, I pray that we will not escape this petri dish to infect other planets.  I'd rather we did not become galactic viruses of destruction.  We should get it right here or vanish.
 
Is there any form of spiritual dimension of reality? If so, briefly describe it. 
I have no trouble attaching meaning to such words as "soul" and "spirit", but I prefer the former.  Spiritual aspirations all seem escapist to me.  Soul on the other hand has to do with what you have and what you are, I just don't see it as having any other manifestation beyond the living body, either before or after life.
 
Do incorporeal beings exist? 
One can argue that we, in our sense of identity, are such beings in that we are psychic constructions which our bodies assemble in just the way it does the body in the womb and after.  Very likely our psyches do or can assemble other entities as well which remain unconscious to ourselves.  If "God" were one of these constructions, then it might be possible for people so constituted to 'commune' with this entity and gain insight and self knowledge not readily available consciously.  If so, then "God" and ones "ego" would have the same existential status, though one would be much more familiar than the other.
 
How do you define ‘God’? 
It seems to go by a number of names and descriptions among those who belief in Him/Her/Them/It.  The only sense I can make of the word is what I just described.
 
How do you define ‘truth’?
Truth is a correspondence between representation and the state of affairs described whether in words, pictures or anything else.
 

Epistemological
How do you know what is true?
For empirical matters science is the gold standard, which isn't to say it can't be mistaken on occasion.  For the bulk of ones operational knowledge we all settle for a good deal less all the time.  I think even questions involving ourselves sometimes demand discovery.  Life is full of mysteries, but fortunately not outright absurdities.
 
Is there an objective standard by virtue of which one can distinguish truth and falsity, and if so, why is it a reliable standard?
Judgement is always required.  But science is the way in matters empirical, experience (sometimes augmented by researching the thinking of others) must suffice often enough.  I'll even speak up for the value of reflection; even some of us who don't address our depths as "God" can find answers there sometimes.
 
Assuming no objective truth exists, how can you correctly form and evaluate truth claims? 
You cannot always do so, not every truth claim lends itself to certainty - not even in empirical matters where we do not always have access to all the facts.  We should remain humble enough to recognize our limitations.  "I don't know" is sometimes the closest one can come to the truth. 
 

Axiology
Are morals and ethics subjective or objective? 
You won't find them in any authoritative reference book but there is obviously much agreement regarding morals.  Our access to morality is filtered by our own subjective limitations but by and large we do all get to similar conclusions usually.  I believe the place of morality is entirely comprehensible as arising naturally in a animal as gregarious as ourselves.
  
How do you know right from wrong?
Experience and reflection.
 
Can science explain the origin of moral values and concerns? How so?
Yes, I think so by way of evolution.
 
How would you describe a “good person”? A “bad person”?
I wouldn't.  Morally there are better persons and worse persons.  A better person avoids dismissing worse persons as altogether bad.  Better persons care for other people and treat them in a robust thou-manner, not as means to an end.
 
What would an “ideal society” look like?
An ideal society would be one that takes seriously our place in the web of life and did not try allocate every resource to maximizing our footprint on the planet.  We are a long way from there.  As much as I like individual people, there are way too many of us. 

Do people act purely out of self-interest?
You can always examine peoples motives in that light, but from the inside few would think they always do.  I infer from that that that the answer is no.  
 
What is the most important moral attribute (i.e. love, justice, equality, selflessness, etc.)? How do you define it?
That would require a complex, spectral answer which would likely vary by circumstance.  Concern for a something beyond our and our in-group's needs is nice to find.
 
What is mankind’s single biggest problem?
Our blindness to our mutual dependence on the wider web of life and our ability to extract resources needed by all.  That and our susceptibility to unreasoned impulses which we've also inherited.  Who would have thought you could get so powerful that you could break the petri dish that contains you?  
 

Is there a solution to this problem, and if so, what is it?
A miracle.  

Thanks a million! These are great answers.

---

(March 2, 2018 at 5:35 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 5:08 pm)stretch3172 Wrote: Yes. So?

No free will for you then.

With all due respect, that's a very gullible conclusion. Compatibilism (the idea that determinism is consistent with freedom) has been well-argued since the first few centuries BCE. That aside, foreknowledge does not equal agency. If I see a naked guy about to jump onto a cactus on a dare, I obviously forsee that he's gonna be pretty jacked up after. Does that mean that I pushed him onto the cactus? No. It just means I foreknew the result.

(March 2, 2018 at 5:38 pm)stretch3172 Wrote:

---

(March 2, 2018 at 5:35 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: No free will for you then.

With all due respect, that's a very gullible conclusion. Compatibilism (the idea that determinism is consistent with freedom) has been well-argued since the first few centuries BCE. That aside, foreknowledge does not equal agency. If I see a naked guy about to jump onto a cactus on a dare, I obviously forsee that he's gonna be pretty jacked up after. Does that mean that I pushed him onto the cactus? No. It just means I foreknew the result.

Sorry, nice dodge attempt, try again.

(March 2, 2018 at 5:50 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 5:38 pm)stretch3172 Wrote:

---

With all due respect, that's a very gullible conclusion. Compatibilism (the idea that determinism is consistent with freedom) has been well-argued since the first few centuries BCE. That aside, foreknowledge does not equal agency. If I see a naked guy about to jump onto a cactus on a dare, I obviously forsee that he's gonna be pretty jacked up after. Does that mean that I pushed him onto the cactus? No. It just means I foreknew the result.

Sorry, nice dodge attempt, try again.

A dodge attempt in what way exactly?

(March 2, 2018 at 5:51 pm)stretch3172 Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 5:50 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Sorry, nice dodge attempt, try again.

A dodge attempt in what way exactly?

In the presence of an omniscient god, seeing what you wrote before you wrote it, there is no free will to write anything other.