(April 1, 2018 at 6:19 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Your inability to believe in the blisteringly obvious is a comment on your religious indoctrination, and nothing more.

"belief in praise and value doesn't make something praiseworthy or valuable, it's circular reasoning to justify value by our belief in value"
"we can't subjectively praise anything without belief in some objective existence of praise/value"

I would say now, and I realize this, is witnessing value in oneself and others, cannot be just belief or want for there to be. It has to vision of value. And if it's a mystic nature (goodness/value/love) and it's connected to the divine, then is it's reality.

You cannot deny it's reality, it's connection to the source, and it's source, and say you see this light we clothe ourselves by from the light, we can believe it to.

But believers are right. You aren't justified in belief in it.

It's a mystic connection that connects us all and embraces us all, and witnesses the reality of the mystic nature of love, goodness, and praise, that we have to accept, and attachment to the connection is goodness.

Not to deny it's reality, disfigure it, and than say, well you see these little bits and pieces, we have of it, it means you don't need God to ascend towards higher levels of goodness, and you don't need God to be good, and you can be good without God, and all this none sense you guys be talking.

We use goodness as a proof of God, but really, it's God that is the proof of goodness being real, and we should thank him for it!

Mystic, have you ever read Plato's Euthyphro? 

In it the argument is made that (even if gods exist) values don't come from them. It's a solid argument. I am convinced by it anyway, and I've given it a great deal of consideration.

The arguments for moral skepticism are tough to overcome, but is has been done without appeal to religious notions.

Religious people like to tout themselves as people with true and certain values. But you know what I've found? When you really press them on it, and work past the surface of the issues, you often find a moral nihilist beneath the armor. Everything boils down to a blood ritual that forgave sin or obeying laws that were etched onto stone tablets. Nothing about intrinsic human value. Nothing about treating others with care and dignity because they deserve it. It's all done out of obedience... or for a reward... or to escape a punishment. Where are the values in all that?

To think about and reason out why something is right or why something is wrong and to live according to those principles demonstrates a greater ethical character than obeying a superior cosmic force out of fear.

(April 1, 2018 at 6:40 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Yeah... k bro. I am the one who has not thought things through

Correct.

(April 1, 2018 at 7:10 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Mystic, have you ever read Plato's Euthyphro? 

In it the argument is made that (even if gods exist) values don't come from them. It's a solid argument. I am convinced by it anyway, and I've given it a great deal of consideration.

The arguments for moral skepticism are tough to overcome, but is has been done without appeal to religious notions.

Religious people like to tout themselves as people with true and certain values. But you know what I've found? When you really press them on it, and work past the surface of the issues, you often find a moral nihilist beneath the armor. Everything boils down to a blood ritual that forgave sin or obeying laws that were etched onto stone tablets. Nothing about intrinsic human value. Nothing about treating others with care and dignity because they deserve it. It's all done out of obedience... or for a reward... or to escape a punishment. Where are the values in all that?

To think about and reason out why something is right or why something is wrong and to live according to those principles demonstrates a greater ethical character than obeying a superior cosmic force out of fear.

I think you should read the thread.

(April 1, 2018 at 7:30 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 1, 2018 at 7:10 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Mystic, have you ever read Plato's Euthyphro? 

In it the argument is made that (even if gods exist) values don't come from them. It's a solid argument. I am convinced by it anyway, and I've given it a great deal of consideration.

The arguments for moral skepticism are tough to overcome, but is has been done without appeal to religious notions.

Religious people like to tout themselves as people with true and certain values. But you know what I've found? When you really press them on it, and work past the surface of the issues, you often find a moral nihilist beneath the armor. Everything boils down to a blood ritual that forgave sin or obeying laws that were etched onto stone tablets. Nothing about intrinsic human value. Nothing about treating others with care and dignity because they deserve it. It's all done out of obedience... or for a reward... or to escape a punishment. Where are the values in all that?

To think about and reason out why something is right or why something is wrong and to live according to those principles demonstrates a greater ethical character than obeying a superior cosmic force out of fear.

I think you should read the thread.

I read the OP and like half of page 1, you mean read the whole thing?

This is so sad... MK, get a dog or something.

(April 1, 2018 at 7:33 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(April 1, 2018 at 7:30 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think you should read the thread.

I read the OP and like half of page 1, you mean read the whole thing?

I really begin discussing on page 7 I think, but said something irrelevant before that.

See the conversation.

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(April 1, 2018 at 7:36 pm)Aegon Wrote: This is so sad... MK, get a dog or something.

I plan on to! When I move out!

MK, it seems to me one of your main problems is that you lose yourself through the torture of overthinking.

(April 1, 2018 at 6:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: https://atheistforums.org/thread-15323.html

This thread, this thread, a lot was proven.

There is a post, that it was better to pretend for there to be value and delude humans that there is such a thing, than not create myth and let them think there is no such thing.

We hate the Shamans and Prophets of old, but they steered humans to believing in self-worth.

What if you realized there is no justifying value without God but that God was impossible to exist, what you would do?

I thought I was at that point in that thread. I wanted to believe so badly that value is possible in the Atheism paradigm, but I couldn't believe it.

Yet I thought God was impossible.

You want to see how emotionally traumatized I was, just read that thread.

By fuck mister this swan song of yours is worth an Academy Award.

It's my illness that makes me constantly think, but I think I have a pretty good control over the while beast now. I know to make it grounded.

Unfortunately, there is no point of doubts if you settle with them. IF you want to clear doubts, then embrace them for their conclusions and see where they lead. And if you are inconsistent with them and you know for certain what contradicts, then leave them and don't embrace what you don't know for certain for what you don't.

Silly how a silly argument brought me so far, and it's the same how I treated Quran and the Bible, two over all beautiful books, the latter with some diversions and faults, but over all stunning literature and most important of all, most epic in guiding subtly and manifestly, the path and way forward for all humans, individually, and collectively.

I left what I knew for certain for mistakes in my reasoning.

Never again shall I tread that road.