(August 16, 2018 at 2:53 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:Atheist Credo: An universe by chance which also just happened to admit the observer by chance.

This is just stupid and a straw man

Quote:In quantum mechanics, Gell-Mann's totalitarian principle states: "Everything not forbidden is compulsory."[1] Physicist Murray Gell-Mann borrowed this expression from T. H. White's The Once and Future King[2] to describe the state of particle physics around the time he was formulating the Eightfold Way, a precursor to the quark-model of hadrons.[3]
The statement is in reference to a surprising feature of particle interactions: that any interaction which is not forbidden by a small number of simple conservation laws is not only allowed, but must be included in the sum over all "paths" which contribute to the outcome of the interaction. Hence if it isn't forbidden, there is some probability amplitude for it to happen.
In the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, the principle has a more literal meaning: that every possibility at every interaction which is not forbidden by such a conservation law will actually happen (in some branch of the wavefunction).

Wikipedia -- Totalitarian principle

(August 15, 2018 at 8:30 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(August 15, 2018 at 1:55 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: I could care less if it's revenge driven. Y'all say that like it should change my mind.

I'm not above saying the death penalty is flawed and needs a serious overall but I don't want to get rid of it. I want the person who is witnessed by cameras or lots of people killing others to die. The kid that shot up the Aurora movie theater- kill him. The person that shot up Los Vegas during the concerts- kill em. Guy that shot up the church? Kill em. Guy that killed everyone from the UT tower? Kill em. (Yes I know most of people in these situations end up dead by either self inflicted GSW or are brought down before the end of the stand off but for those that aren't) Have pictures of yourself with your victims' body for your sick photo album? Get caught red handed? Kill the sick fucks. You will not sway my mind with "justice".

This.

There are certain crimes, as far as I'm concerned, that are worthy of removal from the planet.

Serial killers.
Terrorists who commit a terrorist act.
Serial rapists.
Serial kiddie fiddlers.
Anyone who commits a murder that results in the prolonged suffering of the victim.
And others...

BUT...

...ther must be absolutely no doubt (and such cases do exist).

If you're not going to have the death penalty then the other penalties need to reflect the severity of the crime.  Life should mean life, not out in ten or twenty years.

If you deliberately murder someone then your prison sentence should result in you leaving in a box.

It seems often that laws are all about the rights of the criminal and not the rights of the victims or their families.

I could rant a lot more but I'll stop here..

I can see an argument for murderers, according to lex talionalis, but rapists?  That seems to run afoul of the cruel and inhuman punishment constraint, and I don't see a way to ethically recommend it.  If you're arguing simply that you would find it emotionally satisfying, that's something else.  As with Amanda, I have the same question about it's rationality and ethicality.  A commonly given example is the man who catches someone raping his daughter, and beats the rapist to death with a baseball bat.  His actions are certainly understandable, and we can empathize with him emotionally, yet at the same time not be willing to endorse his beating the rapist to death as either legal, or an ethically justifiable response to the crime of rape.  I take it Amanda has quit the thread, but I'd have to ask the same question of her that I ask of you.  Is your stance towards serial rapists and kiddie fiddlers an emotional one, like that of the father with the baseball bat, or is it a calmly reasoned response?

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(August 16, 2018 at 12:43 am)The Valkyrie Wrote: Should they be treated any differently than the dogs?

Why?

Yes, they should. And if you have to ask why, then I question your humanity.

(August 15, 2018 at 3:29 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

(August 15, 2018 at 1:56 am)robvalue Wrote: Oh really? I wasn't aware that killing would be more expensive. I have heard about jails being profitable, and that itself being an issue.

My concerns are more about dangerous people escaping, but I think that's probably too rare to justify an argument.

I hadn't put enough thought into the issues when I previously held my pro-penalty position. This forum was actually the catalyst to thinking it all through more carefully, maybe 3 years ago now, and I changed my mind. I was thinking of making a thread about what issues this forum has caused people to reconsider.

1.Death row is quite expensive 

2.Indeed it's is rare 

Really the one argument i have seen that might work is the notion the idea that it's crueler to jail someone for life then kill them . I argue that a prisoner should be given the option  to die if they want .As i don't view suffer as equal to justice.

I agree with this. If someone is facing jail with no release, I think they should be allowed to die, subject to psychological evaluations of course. I think it's cruel to force people to live who don't want to, even if it's for "revenge".

Agreeing with Tiz.

People commit suicide in prison.  There's no need for us to sanction it or provide them the tools to do so.  Do the crime, serve the time.  Death in that scenario is just another way to escape responsibility and deny justice.

(August 16, 2018 at 9:49 am)Khemikal Wrote: People commit suicide in prison.  There's no need for us to sanction it or provide them the tools to do so.  Do the crime, serve the time.  Death in that scenario is just another way to escape responsibility and deny justice.

Serving time costs unnecessary money. It just does. I don't see death as escaping responsibility. I see it as a necessity.

OFC prisons cost money, I'm not sure serving a prison sentence handed down by a conviction is unnecessary - that seems to run counter to the fundamental idea of justice's demands.  Additionally, death is a necessity of what?

Death is the ultimate necessity of life.

Clearly, I should have known better, lol. 

(August 16, 2018 at 9:49 am)Khemikal Wrote: People commit suicide in prison.  There's no need for us to sanction it or provide them the tools to do so.  Do the crime, serve the time.  Death in that scenario is just another way to escape responsibility and deny justice.

Unfortunately our prisons don't do a very good job of actually reforming people. Often times they get worse, and even if they do the time and get out, they could be stigmatized for the rest of their life anyway.