Posts: 33250
Threads: 1416
Joined: March 15, 2013
Reputation:
152
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:53 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 11:54 am by Silver.)
(August 30, 2018 at 11:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Nope! Religious people are mentally ill. And atheists aren't. Like, ever. 😋
Anyone can be mentally ill. It is simply that theists choose to be thus by choosing to believe in that which has no evidence for its existence. Atheists aren't mentally ill because they're atheist as theists are because they're theists. If an atheist is mentally ill, it is likely due to something brought on by a theistic upbringing or a genetically inherited disorder or just a disorder that cannot be directly associated with atheism.
You see, theism is its own special kind of sickness: it corrupts everything by disguising itself as good.
Posts: 11697
Threads: 117
Joined: November 5, 2016
Reputation:
43
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:55 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 11:56 am by Amarok.)
(August 30, 2018 at 11:44 am)polymath257 Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Because God is literally love and goodness itself. Love does not exist apart from Him, the same way rain does not exist apart from water. Because rain literally is water.
As humans, we were made for love because we were created by Him, who is love. Meaning that is ultimately how we will find fulfillment - through love. Without it, we cannot be joyful, by nature.
In this life, we can find distractions. Like money, sex, activities, etc. A person who is greedy and has pushed everyone away and has 0 love in their lives but still has a lot of material things and a lot of bodily pleasures, isn't a truly happy and fulfilled person. But since they still have those distractions, they may not always feel completely empty.
However, when we die, we don't bring money with us. We don't bring our bodies with us. Meaning all that is left is our souls. There are no material possessions or bodily pleasures. So if you reject God (ie reject love), there is nothing to distract you from your lack of love. And since love is integral to our sense of fulfillement and joy, a person who rejects love in the next life cannot be happy.
Love is an emotion. It is mediated in the brain. It isn't some universal force.
That's not to say I think it meaningless or bad--quite the contrary! But to identify it with a supernatural entity just seems, well, unusual. To think an emotion is the same as a creator of the universe is perverse.
God is clearly *not* the same as love. When I love my wife, I don't have to have a belief in a deity, even though I believe that I have that emotion.
(August 30, 2018 at 9:58 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, not from the "pure" version. There is only one version. So, then, I experience 'God' whenever I see my wife? Really? Either I do not love my wife OR there is more than one 'version' OR you are simply wrong. And I know I love my wife. Well said much better then my answer 
(August 30, 2018 at 11:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 11:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?
Nope! Religious people are mentally ill. And atheists aren't. Like, ever. 😋 One does not need to be mentally ill to be delusional in fact delusion can in themselves be mentally therapeutic.
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:58 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:44 am)polymath257 Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Because God is literally love and goodness itself. Love does not exist apart from Him, the same way rain does not exist apart from water. Because rain literally is water.
As humans, we were made for love because we were created by Him, who is love. Meaning that is ultimately how we will find fulfillment - through love. Without it, we cannot be joyful, by nature.
In this life, we can find distractions. Like money, sex, activities, etc. A person who is greedy and has pushed everyone away and has 0 love in their lives but still has a lot of material things and a lot of bodily pleasures, isn't a truly happy and fulfilled person. But since they still have those distractions, they may not always feel completely empty.
However, when we die, we don't bring money with us. We don't bring our bodies with us. Meaning all that is left is our souls. There are no material possessions or bodily pleasures. So if you reject God (ie reject love), there is nothing to distract you from your lack of love. And since love is integral to our sense of fulfillement and joy, a person who rejects love in the next life cannot be happy.
Love is an emotion. It is mediated in the brain. It isn't some universal force.
That's not to say I think it meaningless or bad--quite the contrary! But to identify it with a supernatural entity just seems, well, unusual. To think an emotion is the same as a creator of the universe is perverse.
God is clearly *not* the same as love. When I love my wife, I don't have to have a belief in a deity, even though I believe that I have that emotion.
Poly, it is a hypothetical question.
You know how sometimes atheists on this site set up hypothetical scenarios asking us what we would do if God told us to kill people, or if we found out God was evil? And then they complain when theists say "well God wouldn't do that", rather than actually answering the hypothetical?
Well, I always try to answer. I would appreciate it if someone answered my own hypothetical in return.
(We can address you loving your wife later.)
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 3045
Threads: 14
Joined: July 7, 2014
Reputation:
14
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:58 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:18 am)Khemikal Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 11:04 am)SteveII Wrote: What?!
Forget the "pure version". If you don't have a body, you do not have inputs. You don't have outputs. You will not experience anything but contemplation. How in the world could you experience happiness!? One wonders how heaven is supposed to work for all the good boys and girls, in that case.
What are you talking about? Judging by the constant claims of knowing what Christians believe and the criticisms that follow, I imagined everyone here (especially you) understand the basics of the NT. Did I misunderstand the level of knowledge all you claim to have? Was there a memo telling everyone just to pretend? I'm so confused.
Just in case this is a one-time misunderstanding of what is in the NT: It is mentioned many times that those on their way to heaven get new bodies that are not subject to decay.
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:59 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 12:00 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(August 30, 2018 at 11:44 am)polymath257 Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:58 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, not from the "pure" version. There is only one version. So, then, I experience 'God' whenever I see my wife? Really? Either I do not love my wife OR there is more than one 'version' OR you are simply wrong. And I know I love my wife.
Yes. Love is a way of experiencing God in this life.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 2412
Threads: 5
Joined: January 3, 2018
Reputation:
22
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 12:01 pm
(August 30, 2018 at 11:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:18 am)polymath257 Wrote: Either way, 'furthest from Him is best'.
Poly, may I ask you why? I'm not trying to change your mind or challenge you. I am genuinely curious to understand your perspective.
Hypothetical scenario:
At the moment of your death God appears before you and you realize at that moment that you were wrong about Him. He isn't an evil monster, or a tyrant like you always thought He would be if He were real. Things that you misunderstood about Him would be made clear. You see that He is good and loving. And you see that not only is He good and loving, but that He is literally goodness and love itself. And you understand at that moment that choosing to accept His love would mean complete fulfillment. It wouldn't be boring or bad, like you thought. It would be the ultimate fulfillment - complete joy and love.
Furthermore, choosing to "accepting His love" wouldn't be of any cost to you. All it means is that you reject greed (which is the opposite of love), admit/feel remorse for your wrongdoings and mistakes, and desire true goodness and love going forward. That is all accepting God's love would imply. (Think The Prodigal Son)
Why wouldn't you choose that? I'm just trying to understand why any good person wouldn't.
(Anyone else can answer this hypothetical as well)
You propose a scenario that makes no sense to me. Sure, we could have some powerful entity that is good and loving. But that is quite different than being 'goodness' and 'love' themselves. And those are psychological entities, NOT some all powerful force.
Furthermore, I *already* reject greed, feel remorse for my mistakes, and desire to be good and loving. So it is a question of whether this 'good and loving' entity wants to accept *me* as opposed to the other way around.
But I also don't consider perpetual 'love and joy' to be the same as fulfillment. That is, in many ways, closer to a drug high than reality. I prefer to see the world as it is: full of badness as well as goodness, full of possibilities of achievement, but also failure, complex and not simple. Being blissful is quite distinct from fulfillment, and often is in exactly the opposite direction.
Posts: 67292
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 12:01 pm
(August 30, 2018 at 11:51 am)polymath257 Wrote: There may well be religious notions that are not delusional, but they are few and far between and I can't think of one off the top of my head.
A belief in a god, combined with a belief that a god would want you to be a good person - is an easy example. It may be wrong, or at least half wrong..but it's not delusional.
In any case, I think you're watching people twist themselves into absurd knots and thinking that this is delusion..but allow me to suggest a counter-factual.
That's a non-delusional mind trying to make sense of a delusional and massively contradictory set of beliefs. If they were really space cadets..they wouldn't even make the attempt.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 2412
Threads: 5
Joined: January 3, 2018
Reputation:
22
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 12:02 pm
(August 30, 2018 at 11:59 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 11:44 am)polymath257 Wrote: So, then, I experience 'God' whenever I see my wife? Really? Either I do not love my wife OR there is more than one 'version' OR you are simply wrong. And I know I love my wife.
Yes. Love is a way of experiencing God in this life.
I heartily reject that notion. I am not experiencing some supernatural entity when I have the emotion of love. I am experiencing the effects of certain chemicals in my brain. Now, I *like* those effects and value them, but they are certainly NOT the same as a deity.
Posts: 8711
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 12:03 pm
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 12:03 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(August 30, 2018 at 11:22 am)Kit Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 11:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?
Because you are wrong and unwilling to accept it. Therefore, you're preferring the delusion over the reality.
How is that different from a believer accusing you of willful ignorance and degeneracy for refusing to believe? Accusing other people of intellectual stubbornness and professing things they don't actually believe sounds to me like an excuse to deny the possibility that Christians could have genuine and innocent reasons for their beliefs.
<insert profound quote here>
Posts: 67292
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 12:03 pm
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 12:03 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
They probably are (love/chems/gods)..just not in the way the believer thinks. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
