(August 31, 2018 at 10:12 am)Khemikal Wrote: Indeed, and "we" are noting that the problems of employment vis-a-vis racism in america are an inability to network in segregation, racial biases that lead to uneven selection, and disparate pay if selected.

I don't know this for sure, and you haven't produced facts about it, but I think it's very likely true.

Quote:IQ is irrelevant to all of that.  It's not as if good jobs sit you down for an IQ test.   They have no fucking clue what your IQ is.

When I do face-to-face interviews, I can determine very quickly indeed who's smart. Language skills, the ability to comprehend tricky questions and answer them well-- even the manner in which someone admits they don't KNOW the answer shows where people stand.

Quote:  It may be true that a smarter person operating within privilege can navigate that privilege to a greater extent - and this is why studies that look for a correlation between the two isolate for that effect by removing demographics known to be disadvantaged for social or institutional reasons.  Fun fact, even within those controlled groups....things like smoking, or having been divorced...or possessing a credit card..entirely cancel out whatever professional benefit there is to having a high IQ as it relates to wealth or earnings.  

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, here. What do you mean by "controlled groups?" I don't think that you normally look "within" controlled groups-- you control variables so that you can discount their influence in producing data.

Quote:I wish IQ had a more pronounced and resilient effect, I really do, your boy here aint exactly a dummy...even though I am miscegenated.  Guess I must've got the good brain -and- the good hair.  

Not gonna lie, I'm a little jealous. Black girls are hawt. Wait-- that IS what you're saying, right?

Quote:Because racism is a thing regardless of whether or not there are "differences", and those "differences" do not support or justify racism.

No, of course not. I wouldn't say either intelligence or income are the best measures of a human being. But they certainly provide a metric for the alt-right in claiming white superiority (over blacks at least); and they do challenge the idea that black people's circumstances are entirely a product of oppression by whites.

Quote:Racism is also the fact that networking is difficult in segregation, black sounding names don't get calls back, and black people get paid less at every education level.  IQ in't a factor in any of that, they're just the wrong shade of lipstick.

Yeah, and it depends on the job, too. Not everyone is applying to be a lawyer or a doctor all the time. But I wouldn't depend too strongly on education level. In English teaching, I've found a negative correlation between degree and competence-- that extra 4 years of social skills and real-life experience really don't look good when you throw an adult in with a bunch of noisy kids. What I need is someone who's literate, but still has two feet planted on the ground. Given a guy with a humanities degree vs. a guy with a MSc degree in linguistic developmental neurology or something, I'm taking the basket-weaver 90% of the time.

Quote:You're starting to toe the line of my ability to take you seriously, or as a non racist who's ingested racist talking points.  How do you suggest that an employer determine he has the most intelligent candidate, look at their skin and say.."well, we all know that blacks are dumber than whites so imma go for Phillip."  No, ofc not..right...but that's all that could be drawn from your white supremacist shitpost.

I pretty much AM saying that. If I had a position for which IQ was relevant-- like difficult computer programming, and I had two comparable college graduates, I'd be right to go with the probability that the Asian guy is smarter. Now, I may be giving up black Bill Gates and kick myself later, but on average, given two equally qualified candidates, why wouldn't I consider the statistical realities when I make my decision.

(Although what I'd actually do, in fact, would be to give a test, and choose the candidate who performed better.)

(August 31, 2018 at 10:38 am)bennyboy Wrote: I don't know this for sure, and you haven't produced facts about it, but I think it's very likely true.

Then go do the work, and determine for yourself whether or not it's true, as you implored people to do with the silly shit racists say.  

Huh?

Quote:When I do face-to-face interviews, I can determine very quickly indeed who's smart.  Language skills, the ability to comprehend tricky questions and answer them well-- even the manner in which someone admits they don't KNOW the answer shows where people stand.

Oh...boy.  You think you've got a built in IQ-ometer?  I don't even know how to begin to unpack that.  

Quote:I'm not quite sure what you're saying, here.  What do you mean by "controlled groups?"

Go figure out for yourself, again..as you implored peopled to do with racist mouth-droppings.

Quote:No, of course not.  I wouldn't say either intelligence or income are the best measures of a human being.  But they certainly provide a metric for the alt-right in claiming white superiority (over blacks at least); and they do challenge the idea that black people's circumstances are entirely a product of oppression by whites.

No, they don't.  Scientific racism gives them a pretext, not a valid metric.  

Quote:Yeah, and it depends on the job, too.  Not everyone is applying to be a lawyer or a doctor all the time.

-and yet when a white person and a black person apply for those jobs...the black person has to hustle harder, gets called back less, and then gets paid less than his white counterpart.   

Quote:I pretty much AM saying that.  If I had a position for which IQ was relevant-- like difficult computer programming, and I had two comparable resumes, I'd be right to go with the probability that the Asian guy is smarter.  Now, I may be giving up black Bill Gates and kick myself later, but on average, given two equally qualified candidates, why wouldn't I consider the statistical realities when I make my decision.

That's pretty fuckin racist, and deplorably ignorant.  

Do you know why, in a nutshell, scientific racism doesn't hold water....regardless of how racist you might be in your hiring policies - and jesus christ man I'm starting to think that "the black guy" you met might have been onto something after all......

Because there are "differences" within the races which don't materialize the same effects as perceived or actual "differences" between the races.  It's clearly not "difference" which is informing a racist decision..it's racism. Like your asian decision above. If you want the guy with the highest IQ, administer a test. Stop looking at his skin like a common fucking klansman, lol? If anybody found out about your line of reasoning over here, they'd wipe the floor with your ass in a discrimination suit, and rightly so. As an employer, I couldn't justify hiring you in any management capacity..you're a liability. I wouldn't want to be on the hook to spend my money defending your increasingly likely to be racist hiring, firing, and promotion decisions. I'm sure you'd probably take that as another example of you being discriminated against or stigmatized, though, somehow.

Your anxieties are begining to take real shape and form.

(August 31, 2018 at 10:45 am)Khemikal Wrote: Then go do the work, and determine for yourself whether or not it's true, as you implored people to do with the silly shit racists say.  

Eh?  I just said I'm inclined to believe you.  I'm satisfied that what you said is likely to be true.

Quote:Oh...boy.  You think you've got a built in IQ-ometer?  I don't even know how to begin to unpack that.  

Absolutely.  And please don't pretend to tell me that you can't identify a dummy in about 5 seconds of conversation.

Quote:

Quote:I'm not quite sure what you're saying, here.  What do you mean by "controlled groups?"

Go figure out for yourself, again..as you implored peopled to do with racist mouth-droppings.

?
I'm saying I don't understand the words you put together.  I'm asking you to clarify what they meant in that context.

Quote:-and yet when a white person and a black person apply for those jobs...the black person has to hustle harder, gets called back less, and then gets paid less than his white counterpart.   

Agreed.

Quote:That's pretty fuckin racist, and deplorably ignorant.  

Because there are "differences" within the races which don't materialize the same effects as perceived or actual "differences" between the races.  It's clearly not "difference" which is informing a racist decision..it's racism.  Like your asian decision above.  If you want the guy with the highest IQ, administer a test.  Stop looking at his skin like a common fucking klansman, lol?  If anybody found out about your line of reasoning over here, they'd wipe the floor with your ass in a discrimination suit, and rightly so. As an employer, I couldn't justify hiring you in any management capacity..you're a liability.

PC rage noted, and as I expressed a few posts ago, anticipated.  So far, in two schools, I've had about 40% black teachers, though the percent of black teachers in Korea is negligible.  That's because I hire on resume, and because I've thought for a long time that white guys in Korea get too full of themselves due to. . . explicit racism and a resulting narcissism.  So I've been racist in my hiring, but I'm pretty okay with that.

But I'm not selecting for IQ.  I'm selecting for personality, and for relevant background.  The main trait I need is someone who's relaxed and can connect well with children, and I personally feel black people have better overall social skills (read: charisma) than white people, in particular white male Americans, who I perceive as being excessively belligerent on the whole.  Again, racist, but I'll own it. White American males are, on the whole, the biggest dicks you'll meet in almost any country. I can't count the times I've seen some fat businessman shouting, "I'm spending good American dollars here, and . . ."

I doubt you'll believe me, but I don't care much. Currently, my two highest-paid employees are a black man and a white woman (not American), and they are paid the same amount. And they are gods in the classroom. Actually, while last year was a horrible time, this year, things are going pretty well.

As for administering a test. . . I'm pretty sure I literally just said that in actual practice, I would just administer a test.

(August 31, 2018 at 11:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: ?
I'm saying I don't understand the words you put together.  I'm asking you to clarify what they meant in that context.

What does it mean for a group to be controlled in a test setting?  

Quote:

Quote:That's pretty fuckin racist, and deplorably ignorant.  

Because there are "differences" within the races which don't materialize the same effects as perceived or actual "differences" between the races.  It's clearly not "difference" which is informing a racist decision..it's racism.  Like your asian decision above.  If you want the guy with the highest IQ, administer a test.  Stop looking at his skin like a common fucking klansman, lol?  If anybody found out about your line of reasoning over here, they'd wipe the floor with your ass in a discrimination suit, and rightly so. As an employer, I couldn't justify hiring you in any management capacity..you're a liability.

PC rage noted, and as I expressed a few posts ago, anticipated.  So far, in two schools, I've had about 40% black teachers, though the percent of black teachers in Korea is negligible.  That's because I hire on resume, and because I've thought for a long time that white guys in Korea get too full of themselves due to. . . explicit racism and a resulting narcissism.  So I've been racist in my hiring, but I'm pretty okay with that.

You're mistaking amusement for rage.  I guess I should sprinkle my text with even more smileys and lols..you know how it is on the internet, you lose the human context in contact.  Remember, I grew up with this shit, it doesn't register on my rage meter, or I'd have never made it out of the swamp psyche intact.  The phenomenon of racism is depressing, individual racists and racist ideas don't rise much higher than laughable and quaint, in their own way.  

Quote:But I'm not selecting for IQ.  I'm selecting for personality, and for relevant background.  The main trait I need is someone who's relaxed and can connect well with children, and I personally feel black people have better overall social skills (read: charisma) than white people, in particular white male Americans, who I perceive as being excessively belligerent on the whole.  Again, racist, but I'll own it.  White American males are, on the whole, the biggest dicks you'll meet in almost any country.  I can't count the times I've seen some fat businessman shouting, "I'm spending good American dollars here, and . . ."

As for administering a test. . . I'm pretty sure I literally just said that in actual practice, I would just administer a test.

Thus laying to waste the entire diversion into scientific racism.  

In any case, it's too bad that you have that perception, there's a shortage of male teachers over here, likely due.. in part.. to a similar perception. 

Fat businessmen probably aren't our best diplomats, we're not thrilled about those guys either lol. You know what I think you'd like? A big heaping helping of southern hospitality.

(August 31, 2018 at 11:30 am)Khemikal Wrote: Thus laying to waste the entire diversion into scientific racism.  

In any case, it's too bad that you have that perception, there's a shortage of male teachers over here, likely due.. in part.. to a similar perception. 

It's possible that American men know this, and that the PC movement is a mating dance-- Hey girls. I'm least I'm not THAT guy.

As for teachers-- blond, blue-eyed late-20's teachers are very heavily preferred in Korea, regardless of their resumes. That's because they look good on the company poster. But fortunately, I live in a pretty rich district, with a much more worldly customer base, and I haven't really ever had any problems in that regard. I usually only get complaints if teachers are actively hostile, or don't bother to check homework properly.

Quote:Fat businessmen probably aren't our best diplomats, we're not thrilled about those guys either lol.  You know what I think you'd like?  A big heaping helping of southern hospitality.  

Right now, I'm thinking that I'd like a big heaping helping of a southern black woman. That's about the only southern hospitality I have any interest in.

I googled racial preferences, expecting to find that black women preferred white men (I was wrong), and that white men chose almost anything but white women (exotic means extra fun, I thought but I was wrong again). I was extremely surprised to find that black women were on the bottom of the selection list. I mean. . . I can definitely say that my DNA is looking to diversify its portfolio, and I'm slightly suspicious of any man who isn't the same way.

There-- now we can transition from me being an alt-right racist, to me being a misogynist pig.

(August 31, 2018 at 11:56 am)bennyboy Wrote: It's possible that American men know this, and that the PC movement is a mating dance-- Hey girls.  I'm least I'm not THAT guy.

I think it's starting to get superfluous to point out every time you blurt out the alt right script.  You could get alot of play with this one on an incel board. 


Or, and follow me through the weeds here because I know you think this is just un-fuckingpossible....the pc movement might be a legitimate response of solidarity in the face of discrimination, disenfranchisement, and the perpetuation of racial myths in media, and our general coziness with them in general.  

I mean, IDK about you, but I don't think that politicians or celebrities are owed their status..so if they fuck up, they should probably buck up.  Similarly, if some racist wants to say racist shit..then he might want to prepare himself for the fallout of exposing himself as a racist...or at least be okay with his own racism so that he doesn't have to cry into his coffee about how everyone's being mean to him and denying his right, that he availed himself of, to say stupid shit.

Quote:As for teachers-- blond, blue-eyed late-20's teachers are very heavily preferred in Korea, regardless of their resumes.  That's because they look good on the company poster.  But fortunately, I live in a pretty rich district, with a much more worldly customer base, and I haven't really ever had any problems in that regard.


Right now, I'm thinking that I'd like a big heaping helpful of a southern black woman.  That's about the only southern hospitality I have any interest in.

I googled racial preferences, expecting to find that black women preferred white men (I was wrong).  But I was extremely surprised to find that black women were on the bottom of the selection list.  I mean. . .

Weird, right?

(August 31, 2018 at 12:01 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I mean, IDK about you, but I don't think that politicians or celebrities are owed their status..so if they fuck up, they should probably buck up.  Similarly, if some racist wants to say racist shit..then he might want to prepare himself for the fallout of exposing himself as a racist...or at least be okay with his own racism so that he doesn't have to cry into his coffee about how everyone's being mean to him and denying his right, that he availed himself of, to say stupid shit.    

It depends how extreme the ideology is. In my opinion, any time dogma supplants discussion, then it's game over already. I don't care how valid the original intentions were, as soon as people say, "Shut the fuck up. I'm so right I don't even have to prove it," then you're on the road to something very bad indeed. When guilt by association of ideas precludes ANY discussion at all, then a disservice has been done.

Still schlepping a parody of the pc position as a justification for your white victimization complex.  

You're the person associating yourself with racists, Benny.  Own it. Personal responsibility and all that. If you say the shit racists say to the same effect that racists employ it, you're going to be categorized as a racist. You're putting in the work. If you're not a racist, then you need to figure out how you ended up putting that work in and how you can -stop- convincing people that you're a racist, going forward.

If it matters to you at all, ofc...and if it doesn't, hell, own that too.

(August 31, 2018 at 12:56 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Still schlepping a parody of the pc position as a justification for your white victimization complex.  

You're the person associating yourself with racists, Benny.  Own it.  Personal responsibility and all that.  If you say the shit racists say to the same effect that racists employ it, you're going to be categorized as a racist.  You're putting in the work.  If you're not a racist, then you need to figure out how you ended up putting that work in and how you can -stop- convincing people that you're a racist, going forward.

If it matters to you at all, ofc...and if it doesn't, hell, own that too.

I'm perfectly fine with being called racist, and have already called myself so, and I believe that any person who claims NOT to differentiate in some way among races is either a saint or a liar, with the latter being infinitely more likley.  I do, in fact, believe that there may be fundamental differences between the races.  I really do believe that Asians are the smartest, and that black people are the most athletically gifted.  For many, simply acknowledging that there might be any difference at all is enough for them to go off on a triggered rant.  But I consider that racist, too-- white guilt, with a burning desire to show that one is not representative of the villainized majority, is ALSO racism.  The idea that black people, and there are many millions of them, need some douche with his Starbucks satchel to stand up at a dinner party talking about cultural appropriation or whatever, is patently racist.  Who the fuck is HE that they need HIS help?  However well-intentioned, it implies that he thinks they are beneath him-- his individual gesture is in his mind a magnanimous one, since as a special snowflake, his opinion is super-duper-important.

But let me say that there's no particular demographic that if they showed up at my birthday party, I'd be upset or disappointed.  If a black guy sat on the same sofa as me, I would feel equally as uncomfortable as I would feel when I met any other stranger. And if I was ever lucky enough to have a full PC Left black person and a full card-carrying alt-right person show up, I'd hope I had extra popcorn available.

But do you know what I think would happen?  Put in an environment like that, in which they were both guests, I think they would almost for sure treat each other civilly.  Neither would want to stand out as a nutjob-- they would see they were in civilized company, and would behave accordingly. Because one thing, in my view, that the noisiest in the fringe need is numbers-- probably they are classic bullies, whose rage is an expression of insecurity. (As you've quite often said with regards to the alt-right, but which I think likely applies to the more hardcore among the PC Left as well).


That's what I would hope for society-- that those who will surrender completely to tribal instinct, who would most easily get triggered into an irrational rage, no matter how good their intentions or strong their positions, will be drowned out by a more moderate majority who will identify social problems and accept progressive improvements in society over time.

Then you've wasted both of our time.  If you are a racist and you know that you are a racist..neither the pc left nor any sjw is smearing you with guilt by association. Similarly, I suspect that you've known all along that you've been blurting out racist shit and that you got it from racists.

You really are a fucking racist...and no, Benny, regardless of whether it makes you feel better about your own racism, we aren't all racists, like you.

Stop trying to normalize your racism, while vehemently denying that you are normalizing racism...... lol.....?