(October 4, 2018 at 1:04 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 12:56 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Once again, I didn't say that. I said that our moral sense is because that sense increased our survival. Do you see the difference?

So morality is separate and apart from what helps us survive.... I would agree to that.   I don't understand why you keep bringing up evolution though if it's not relevant to the ontology of morality.

We have morality because it helped us survive. Again, do you see the difference? We have these feelings because having those feelings helped us survive. Those are our *moral* feelings. So, being moral in this way helped us to survive.

(October 4, 2018 at 1:08 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:04 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So morality is separate and apart from what helps us survive.... I would agree to that.   I don't understand why you keep bringing up evolution though if it's not relevant to the ontology of morality.

We have morality because it helped us survive. Again, do you see the difference? We have these feelings because having those feelings helped us survive. Those are our *moral* feelings. So, being moral in this way helped us to survive.

Ok... I don't think that you can support that; but then evolution has nothing to do with what is moral?  And what the nature of morality is.

(October 4, 2018 at 1:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:08 pm)polymath257 Wrote: We have morality because it helped us survive. Again, do you see the difference? We have these feelings because having those feelings helped us survive. Those are our *moral* feelings. So, being moral in this way helped us to survive.

Ok... I don't think that you can support that; but then evolution has nothing to do with what is moral?  And what the nature of morality is.

Chimpanzees exhibit moral behaviour. Do they believe in your gawd?

(October 4, 2018 at 1:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Ok... I don't think that you can support that; but then evolution has nothing to do with what is moral?  And what the nature of morality is.

Chimpanzees exhibit moral behaviour. Do they believe in your gawd?

Still not the argument... try again!

(October 4, 2018 at 1:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Chimpanzees exhibit moral behaviour. Do they believe in your gawd?

Still not the argument... try again!

Bonobo's exhibit sexual lasciviousness, got a problem there?

---

My oldest daughter has become my oldest son. Should I kill him/her/it?

(October 4, 2018 at 10:36 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 9:32 am)Whateverist Wrote: Yes and no.  People can and do vary regarding which central values dominate the manner in which they believe they should behave.  So when faced with a situation in which one choice would best serve the value you place on loyalty but a different choice would better serve the value you place on fairness, yes we can certainly disagree.  There are regions of near unanimous agreement but there is also inherent competition between values.  It is important to avoid oversimplification when studying morality.

Agree,but it does start off simple and then one gets to the not so simple. Take, for example, "Thou shalt not kill." Seems simple enough, but then the exceptions start getting lobbed in like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.
Home invasion? Shoot the perp. That's moral.
War? Shoot the enemy. That's moral.
Different nation? Genocide them. That's moral.
And so on. 

Theists always end up trying and failing to defend their immoral god.

Admittedly there is much more hay than than silver needles in any pile of Christians but there really are a few needles in there too.  I've found a few and frankly I'm not interested in talking with the straw any more.  But why waste your time slinging insults with them when they do not represent the best that religion can do?  Of course they're stupid and stubborn and predictable .. so why go there?

Also, apart from evangelizing for atheism, what do you hope to accomplish in any conversation with someone who holds religious beliefs?  Always a good idea to reflect on your own goals so that you have a better chance of achieving them.

(October 4, 2018 at 1:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:08 pm)polymath257 Wrote: We have morality because it helped us survive. Again, do you see the difference? We have these feelings because having those feelings helped us survive. Those are our *moral* feelings. So, being moral in this way helped us to survive.

Ok... I don't think that you can support that; but then evolution has nothing to do with what is moral?  And what the nature of morality is.

The nature of morality is the rules of behavior to produce societies that promote human well being. Which rules work best are partly determined by our genetics.

---

(October 4, 2018 at 1:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Chimpanzees exhibit moral behaviour. Do they believe in your gawd?

Still not the argument... try again!

But it *does* undermine your argument. Morality isn't something that requires a belief in a deity, nor even the existence of a deity. That eliminates the moral argument.

(October 4, 2018 at 4:07 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Ok... I don't think that you can support that; but then evolution has nothing to do with what is moral?  And what the nature of morality is.

The nature of morality is the rules of behavior to produce societies that promote human well being. Which rules work best are partly determined by our genetics.

Who's well being? You just seem to be trying to determine what is moral, and not making a case for what morality is. You are making statements, and not giving reason or evidence for your position. Morality is the principles concerning right and wrong behavior or what one ought to do. How do you get there from evolution?

Quote:

---

(October 4, 2018 at 1:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Still not the argument... try again!

But it *does* undermine your argument. Morality isn't something that requires a belief in a deity, nor even the existence of a deity. That eliminates the moral argument.

Once again, I'm not saying that morality is dependent on belief in a God. It's part of the argument that it is not. As to your claim about not requiring existence of a deity, you have offered no reason for this statement, and it's begging the question. Also, I don't think that apes have rules per say... have you considered that you are just seeing faces in clouds.

(October 4, 2018 at 4:21 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (...) Also, I don't think that apes have rules per say... have you considered that you are just seeing faces in clouds.

Hmmm, well, an irony meter just gone out the window. It is a good thing they make them cheap.

(October 4, 2018 at 4:07 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 1:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Ok... I don't think that you can support that; but then evolution has nothing to do with what is moral?  And what the nature of morality is.

The nature of morality is the rules of behavior to produce societies that promote human well being. Which rules work best are partly determined by our genetics.

---

(October 4, 2018 at 1:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Still not the argument... try again!

But it *does* undermine your argument. Morality isn't something that requires a belief in a deity, nor even the existence of a deity. That eliminates the moral argument.

What is it about the subject that is the basis for morality?   Is it just feelings or personal preference?   Is it something else.

---

(October 4, 2018 at 4:26 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(October 4, 2018 at 4:21 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (...) Also, I don't think that apes have rules per say... have you considered that you are just seeing faces in clouds.

Hmmm, well, an irony meter just gone out the window. It is a good thing they make them cheap.

How so?