(October 11, 2018 at 5:49 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Christian and Jewish texts involve explicit verses that say women are lesser than men, and give men superiority over women too.
But I can't say the same about the Quran. The sects of Islam that believe women are lesser, are the same sects that believe in Hadith books and sources other than the Quran.

Quote:2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Quote:2:282 And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women

Quote:4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females

Of course you are going to argue that this is ok, since it doesnt really discriminate, but only takes into account that women are "different" from men.  

(October 11, 2018 at 5:00 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 4:23 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Any man who tries to hit me for ANY reason will get a close encounter of the knee kind to the groin.

Fighting with hands is more honorable for a Valkyrie. Don't abuse men's natural weaknesses and seek a fair fight.

You said it yourself, men are physically stronger.

If I have to take advantage of different tactics to defend myself, I'll do it. It's more dishonourable to allow some primitive to hit or possibly kill you without defending yourself.

Why the fuck is this even a topic?

Oh, religion. Screw yourself god.

(October 11, 2018 at 4:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: There is no doubt that humanity through its history faced a civil war between the both variations of humans: males and females.
It was mostly a male dominated war with men winning time after time due to their numbers and having higher muscle percentage.

But why does the Quran gives permission for men to hit their wives ? notice that I used the word "wives" and not the word "women".
The verse which gave the permission says:

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
https://quran.com/4/34?translations=

Abul Ala Maududi(With tafsir)

(4:34) Men are the protec-tors and maintainers of women6 because Allah has made one of them excel over the other,7 and because they spend out of their possessions (to support them). Thus righteous women are obedient and guard the rights of men in their absence under Allah's protection.8 As for women of whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, and remain apart from them in beds, and beat them.9 Then if they obey you, do not seek ways to harm them. Allah is Exalted, Great.

The original Arabic word for "protectors and maintainers" is "Qawamoon قوامون", so you can google that up to make sure I didn't play or change the translation.

So it makes total sense that due to God's gifting men and males with the gift of bigger muscle index and strength and making the spending of money on the mate falling on their hands most of the time, they are the protectors and maintainers of women. Of course, even historically wars are dominated by men, and almost by 99.9999999 % husbands go to battlefields to protect their wives.

The verse then speaks about women who rebel against their husbands; and goes to define 3 levels of rebellion:

1-The first is dealt with by admonishing.
2-The second is dealt with by abandoning the wife in bed
3-The third is dealt with by beating.

But we know from this verse that to take somebody's eye out, he must take yours first as this verse says:

Quote:Sura 5, The Quran:

Abul Ala Maududi(With tafsir)
https://quran.com/5/45?translations=

(5:45) And therein We had ordained for them: 'A life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and for all wounds, like for like.4 But whosoever forgoes it by way of charity, it will be for him an expiation.5 Those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are indeed the wrong-doers.

We must apply this verse upon ourselves too. We can't take a part of the Quran and neglect the other part.
So this should make the "wife beating" urban legend clear: it is a very fair sentence in a religion that teaches justice, an eye for an eye, but also teaches that forgoing and forgiving is a very noble thing.

There is a strong wing that uses women's misery across history to turn females into wax dolls; making $$ out of their bodies from porn industries to feminism. Fooling the masses by nude parades, while Nicola and Bart get executed for being anarchists.

Let's rise to the occasion and start to look at women as peoples; not children.

You could have shortened this a whole lot by just typing, 'God told me it was OK to beat my wife.'

Fuck you.

Boru

(October 11, 2018 at 5:42 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 5:19 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Yet another example of how religion poisons everything.  You made a post, on these boards..about how beating a bitch who won't do what you say is totes cool..if you tell her three times. 

JUSTICE!

I love the quranic flowchart of conflict resolution within a committed relationship.  Shame her, withhold the peener, and then slap her around.

I really would like to know if you're ignoring posts on intention.

Oh stop, magic books tells you that beating a women on the third go is permissible, and then..you know, makes the caveat that a nice guy probably wouldn't do it.

Yathink?

It's not the nice guys looking at magic book going "see!....see!" though, now is it.  Go fuck yourself with this dishonest shit, like always, lol.  Your religion is barbaric, you're so adept at picking out barbarity to make excuses for because you know precisely where to find it in magic book. You want your religion to be less of a trashheap, you want magic book to be less of a hatescreed? Get the fucking whiteout, go, do it. Fix the word of god and stop bullshitting us, or yourself.

Say it with me - "allah didn't tell anyone they could beat their wives..that was some human asshole who wanted to beat his wife, what said that"

(October 11, 2018 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 5:49 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Christian and Jewish texts involve explicit verses that say women are lesser than men, and give men superiority over women too.
But I can't say the same about the Quran. The sects of Islam that believe women are lesser, are the same sects that believe in Hadith books and sources other than the Quran.

Uggggggggg!

If the Koran were so perfect in it's instructions there would be no need for a supplemental book, nor would there be more than one sect. Just like with Jews, you would not have liberal Jews and conservative Jews. You would not have Obama voting Baptists and Trump voting conservative Baptists. You wouldn't have Tibet Buddhists and Chinese Buddhists and Japanese Shinto Buddhists.

If any religion in the world were a cure for humanity, then why are there so many, and so many with sub sects of the same umbrella labels?

BECAUSE humans stupidly think that their religion, their sect is the correct morality. Sunnis and Shiites think that, Baptists and Catholics and Mormons think that, Conservative Jews and Liberal Jews think that.

Me, I'd like all religious people to consider that our ability to be cruel or compassionate ISNT in the old mythology of antiquity, but in our GENES, IN OUR DNA.

Maybe it isn't the Hadiths, or the Koran, or the Bible or Torah or the Hindu Vedas......... MAYBE humans do good as individuals because they are good individuals. Maybe humans do bad as individuals because they are bad individuals? Maybe humans don't need holy books and only think they do?

What creates sects is that each group of believers seek dominance and leadership, you can see it with the rivalries that spark for centuries between the different sects; it's almost identical between religions like you said, but the problem is mainly humans: human beings are the main disaster.

If people just treated other humans as "brothers and sisters", and didn't seek power and dominance over each other, I think earth would look so different. This is about the human brain

(October 11, 2018 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 5:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Fuck the gender crap. 

In reality, if someone male or female, or between two males or between two females. IF someone is fearing for their life, and I don't mean merely pissed off that someone offended them, but if one seriously feels like someone else is out to severely hurt them or kill them, yea, I'd kick you in your fucking nuts, I'd bite you, I would do anything I needed to to save my own life.

Atlass, you like many Christians and many Jews and many Hindu and Buddhist men, YOU ALL NEED TO GROW THE FUCK UP!

Religion wont go away no. But it is way past time that the men in the world stop this bullshit that it is their role to do this or that, or that women do this or that.

Your penis isn't what makes you great, your actions while you are alive do. All having a penis means is that you produce sperm. It doesn't make you better than a female.

Yes ! of course it's not "the penis" that make us great, but it's mentioned in the Quran very very obviously:

Quote:Sahih International
Sura 49, The Quran:

(13) O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.
[url=https://quran.com/49/13-18?translations=20][/url]

Literally this verse is saying what you're saying about the gender being obsolete in judging who's better, but it's the "morals" or "righteousness" that matters

Still not getting it.

YOU DONT need an old book of mythology to figure out right from wrong.

I say the same thing to every other person of every other religion.

Religion doesn't tell men how to interact with women, it only tells men what the social norms of antiquity were. And since ALL religions WORLDWIDE viewed females less favorably it told them AT BEST, not to beat them. But not because even in that case, it was about equality, but if you beat them, they become less productive, or with girls, less marketable to another family. Just like you wouldn't take your holiday crystal you use for Thanksgiving and smash it on the floor. It still is treating females as objects, not equals.

I don't need a holy book to tell me females are equal to me. I don't need to treat females like a Faberge Egg anymore than I need to be told by an old book, walking up to a strange man I never met and punching him in the face is wrong.

You do good to your fellow human, male or female, because it is right, not because an old book written by ignorant patriarchal men told me so.

Girls and women are not weak. I don't get physical with them for the same reason I don't get physical with other men. Because I'd rather solve conflicts with communication. And if I cannot, I might still have words, but I know, unless someone is trying to kill me, words are where it should be left, even between men.

Men in our species history are our own worst enemy because we let testosterone STUPIDLY lead us to meaning "brave" not understanding that one can be "brave" and dead wrong at the same time. Before men argue how females of the world are treated, men of the world need to learn how to communicate without violence.

In a book directly written by God himself, that verse should not exist at all. Taken literally, it just encourages men to beat women.

You'd have to do a lot of twirling around in the book to get to that interpretation of yours, and it's still a little disturbing.

(October 11, 2018 at 6:25 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 5:49 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Christian and Jewish texts involve explicit verses that say women are lesser than men, and give men superiority over women too.
But I can't say the same about the Quran. The sects of Islam that believe women are lesser, are the same sects that believe in Hadith books and sources other than the Quran.

Quote:2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Quote:2:282 And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women

Quote:4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females

Of course you are going to argue that this is ok, since it doesnt really discriminate, but only takes into account that women are "different" from men.  

Quote:2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The degree men have over women is in marriage -as the context of the verse suggests-; and we already know that this "degree" that men have over women in marriage is because they -the men- spend from their money & protect their wives.

So unlike what feminism suggests, men are not slaves to women and men deserve this degree. It's essential for the balance of the family. Please see the divorce rates in the non-Muslim western world where this verse is unknown.

Quote:2:282 And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women

Why don't you quote the whole verse?

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
Sahih International
https://quran.com/2/282?translations=

(282) O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah, his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

So the verse is about "debts".
How many women in ancient Arabia used to know math or even memorize complex calculations and rights? I mean they didn't used to work on caravans like men.

So two women, with very limited knowledge is better than one.

Quote:4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females

Yes, because in most societies -even today- men are the ones responsible for feeding their family, so they deserve a little bit of extra cash to start with.

Remember that the real miracle is that women were a part of the heritage; that is so rare -or even non existent- in the ancient world.

(October 11, 2018 at 7:30 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The degree men have over women is in marriage -as the context of the verse suggests-; and we already know that this "degree" that men have over women in marriage is because they -the men- spend from their money & protect their wives.

So unlike what feminism suggests, men are not slaves to women and men deserve this degree. It's essential for the balance of the family. Please see the divorce rates in the non-Muslim western world where this verse is unknown.

So hitting women is okay if it lowers the divorce rate?

See why we believe Islam is barbarity?