(October 29, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Clearly the text is trying to say their father is the devil .....

but ... it's interesting, ... very interesting if you have your literary "radar" turned on.
This text obviously reflects a MUCH LATER (highly developed) theology and cultural viewpoint.
The words are "placed in the mouth of Jesus" but clearly he would never say these things to Jewish contemporaries.
It's a *later* view of Jesus talking in a later voice.

Jews at the time didn't really have a concept of the devil. Look at the old testament, Satan was the angel who did yhwh's dirty work, not his adversary (the jews at least realise that having an unbeatable enemy would put the crimp in the plausibility of an all powerful being). They also didn't have a concept of an eternal soul, for them paradise was pretty much the same as for the Babylonians who they stole the idea off of, a perfect garden where there was no evil and everybody co-existed peacefully under the direct supervision of their gods (or after the jews returned from Babylon, their god).

Much of the later christian retconning was to try and fit the jumble of conflicting beliefs from the various sects and the beliefs picked up when trying to sell their religion to the Greeks into the framework they had decided to graft their new cult onto in order to legitimise it. Hence why most of the new testament shows a deep and abiding misunderstanding of jewish theology.

Doh ... I missed the most obvious point. 
The "Devil" (Satan) as a "person" is an important Christian concept. 
The "Devil" as originator of evil, is not a Hebrew concept.  
Obviously this dialogue would make no sense to Jews in the 1st Century CE.

Edit : It appears Wololo and I were writing at the same minute ... I agree completely.

(October 29, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Clearly the text is trying to say their father is the devil .....

but ... it's interesting, ... very interesting if you have your literary "radar" turned on.
This text obviously reflects a MUCH LATER (highly developed) theology and cultural viewpoint.
The words are "placed in the mouth of Jesus" but clearly he would never say these things to Jewish contemporaries.
It's a *later* view of Jesus talking in a later voice.

how does this reflect a later view point? what chronological queues are you observing to make this determination

what makes you think Jesus would never speak to the religious leadership that way?

What of all of the other passages where Jesus out right slams the religious leadership for being inept or blind guides?

I have told you and gave you examples of Jesus over and over calling the religious elite out is what got him killed or do you ignore all of that for your hippy version of jesus... you know the one you tested in your life and you know he does not exist?!?!

---

(October 29, 2018 at 7:39 pm)Wololo Wrote:

(October 29, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Clearly the text is trying to say their father is the devil .....

but ... it's interesting, ... very interesting if you have your literary "radar" turned on.
This text obviously reflects a MUCH LATER (highly developed) theology and cultural viewpoint.
The words are "placed in the mouth of Jesus" but clearly he would never say these things to Jewish contemporaries.
It's a *later* view of Jesus talking in a later voice.

Jews at the time didn't really have a concept of the devil.  Look at the old testament, Satan was the angel who did yhwh's dirty work, not his adversary (the jews at least realise that having an unbeatable enemy would put the crimp in the plausibility of an all powerful being).  They also didn't have a concept of an eternal soul, for them paradise was pretty much the same as for the Babylonians who they stole the idea off of, a perfect garden where there was no evil and everybody co-existed peacefully under the direct supervision of their gods (or after the jews returned from Babylon, their god).

Much of the later christian retconning was to try and fit the jumble of conflicting beliefs from the various sects and the beliefs picked up when trying to sell their religion to the Greeks into the framework they had decided to graft their new cult onto in order to legitimise it.  Hence why most of the new testament shows a deep and abiding misunderstanding of jewish theology.

yes the jewish version is indeed the biblical version, and he is a servant meaning he is not an equal opposing force. he has limitations and has been allowed to oppose God with in limitations or boundaries.. for most in the church however the greek or roman understanding of an underworld king is what the devil is.. in truth satan in the ruler of this world,, hell is where he is sent to be punished for eternity. This world is the closest thing satan has to a kingdom.

When you worship this world this morality the things of and in this world you are pledging allegiance to satan. again not as an all powerful anti God, but as a servant charged to lead people away from God.

---

(October 29, 2018 at 7:39 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Doh ... I missed the most obvious point. 
The "Devil" (Satan) as a "person" is an important Christian concept. 
The "Devil" as originator of evil, is not a Hebrew concept.  
Obviously this dialogue would make no sense to Jews in the 1st Century CE.

Edit : It appears Wololo and I were writing at the same minute ... I agree completely.

ezekiel 28 and isaiah 14 tell of lucifer's origin and primary role.. But, also don't forget the whole book of Job is all about satan being allowed to temp job to curse God..

 How can you say the ot does not mention satan when there is a whole book dedicated to him? when he appears in the opening 3 chapters of the bible and when he is dotted 20 more times through out the NT?

that's right you are not very smart, you don't check your sources and you never ever look anything up.. you just go with what sounds good from others who feel as you do..

(October 27, 2018 at 6:54 pm)dude1 Wrote: That's honestly how I interpret John 8:44.

Think you're WAY off base, here.  As has been pointed out, Jesus is telling his audience that their father is the Devil, not God.  None of Jesus' opprobrium is directed at God.

Boru

(October 30, 2018 at 10:11 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:how does this reflect a later view point? what chronological queues are you observing to make this determination

what makes you think Jesus would never speak to the religious leadership that way?

What of all of the other passages where Jesus out right slams the religious leadership for being inept or blind guides?

I have told you and gave you examples of Jesus over and over calling the religious elite out is what got him killed or do you ignore all of that for your hippy version of jesus... you know the one you tested in your life and you know he does not exist?!?!

I did say one has to have one's radar turned on. Not one's childish simplistic ignorance. 

"Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

“I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

These words are a statement of faith. They reflect a much later (post event) view of the Jesus event, and its meaning and understanding. 
There was no "hell" for Jews. ALL dead souls went to Sheol, and that was not where Yahweh lived. There is NEVER an instance of a devil living in Sheol, and you can find none. Until very late in their history, Jews did not believe in immortality. (Paul wrote "put ON immortality" ... only the saved had immortality, which is what one would expect from an apocalyptic Jew).  There is NO place in the Bible that says Satan was sent to hell, or is the leader of an underworld ... NOT ONE. Christians cooked that crap up. 

Anyone who is actually familiar with the OT, Psalm 110 "In splendoribus sanctorum, ex utero, ante luciferum, genuite". 

 
Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6
"For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...adversary/

Job is a MYTHICAL explanation for how the Exile could happen.  One must (through STUDY) understand "divine beings" in Hebrew culture ... Not just go to 3rd Grade Sunday School. When the Witch of Endor conjures the shade of Samuel  for Saul (from Sheol) Saul asks the witch, "What do you see". She answers, "I see a DIVINE being, (the word is "elohim"), coming up out of the ground. (only the witch could *see* or perceive the shade)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

[/url]
"Lucifer ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English]/ˈljuːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər) is a name that, according to dictionaries of the English language, refers either to the Devil or to the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star.[1][2][3]

As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל‎ in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[4] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".

Quote:that's right you are not very smart, you don't check your sources and you never ever look anything up.. you just go with what sounds good from others who feel as you do.

Obviously I'm a GREAT threat to your nonsensical world of fundy ignorance. 
LMAO. Now look who's trying kill the messenger. Unfortunately for you, I have an education, and all you have is a Fundy 3rd Grade education in the Bible. 
Do you read Archaic Hebrew ? Obviously not. Greek ? Obviously not. I read and write both. You you read cuneiform ? LOL 

You're nothing but a self-appointed total amateur, suffering from : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2...ger_effect

Do you read ancient Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and classical Latin?

A sincere question, by the way; not trying to argue or anything like that.

(October 30, 2018 at 11:53 am)Jehanne Wrote: Do you read ancient Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and classical Latin?

A sincere question, by the way; not trying to argue or anything like that.

Yes , but Archaic Hebrew is not the same as Aramaic, (which I do not know). The reason I went to grad school was to read cuneiform.

Drich needs to read :

https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Chri...0679731180

Dr. Elaine Pagels

(October 30, 2018 at 12:22 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(October 30, 2018 at 11:53 am)Jehanne Wrote: Do you read ancient Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and classical Latin?

A sincere question, by the way; not trying to argue or anything like that.

Yes , but Archaic Hebrew is not the same as Aramaic, (which I do not know). The reason I went to grad school was to read cuneiform.

Drich needs to read :

https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Chri...0679731180

Dr. Elaine Pagels

So cool! Drich needs to also understand that a scholar such as Professor Bart Ehrman is representative of mainstream scholarship, as is Dr. Pagels.

(October 30, 2018 at 11:49 am)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(October 30, 2018 at 10:11 am)Drich Wrote: I did say one has to have one's radar turned on. Not one's childish simplistic ignorance. 

"Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

“I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

These words are a statement of faith. They reflect a much later (post event) view of the Jesus event, and its meaning and understanding. 
There was no "hell" for Jews. ALL dead souls went to Sheol, and that was not where Yahweh lived. There is NEVER an instance of a devil living in Sheol, and you can find none. Until very late in their history, Jews did not believe in immortality. (Paul wrote "put ON immortality" ... only the saved had immortality, which is what one would expect from an apocalyptic Jew).  There is NO place in the Bible that says Satan was sent to hell, or is the leader of an underworld ... NOT ONE. Christians cooked that crap up. 

Anyone who is actually familiar with the OT, Psalm 110 "In splendoribus sanctorum, ex utero, ante luciferum, genuite". 

 
Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6
"For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...adversary/

Job is a MYTHICAL explanation for how the Exile could happen.  One must (through STUDY) understand "divine beings" in Hebrew culture ... Not just go to 3rd Grade Sunday School. When the Witch of Endor conjures the shade of Samuel  for Saul (from Sheol) Saul asks the witch, "What do you see". She answers, "I see a DIVINE being, (the word is "elohim"), coming up out of the ground. (only the witch could *see* or perceive the shade)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

[/url]
"Lucifer ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English]/ˈljuːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər) is a name that, according to dictionaries of the English language, refers either to the Devil or to the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star.[1][2][3]

As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל‎ in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[4] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".


Obviously I'm a GREAT threat to your nonsensical world of fundy ignorance. 
LMAO. Now look who's trying kill the messenger. Unfortunately for you, I have an education, and all you have is a Fundy 3rd Grade education in the Bible. 
Do you read Archaic Hebrew ? Obviously not. Greek ? Obviously not. I read and write both. You you read cuneiform ? LOL 

You're nothing but a self-appointed total amateur, suffering from : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2...ger_effect

actually after 25 years of study I know people who refer to aramaic as a language needed to translate the bible accurately are full of crap. I also know that people who refer to the greek as also being pivotal don't understand the basics of the greek language or they would have proper preface the vernacular they used from the greek. so again youre full of shit. And again if you point to the hebrew as being an original language of the OT means your full of shit again and do not understand what language the bible was constructed.

because after 25 years I know only the book of Ezra and Daniel oldest copies were found in aramaic I know that the septuagint is the only complete copy of the old testament and that was not written in hebrew. matter of fact all hebrew translation are transcripts of the septuagint which was written in the koine' as are all NT book. so the fact that you can read greek is as important as reading english when galic is required.

You are a fake you little pos you tried and failed to pedigree me out of this conversation. I'm calling your bluff and shaming you for representing a google search as your own knowledge

I do not fluently speak or read either but again after 25 years of study I know the basics of all the base languages of the bible with reference material I can provide an exegesis on any and all excepts found in the bible or in koine' of that time period. I have also studied enough greek to know that koine and modern greek share very little in commonalities. enough so when one speak in one the difference is like that between spanish and portuguese.

And after 25 years of study I also know how the hebrews classified works like Job eccestacies and proverbs as prized wisdom litature. while not consider apart of the law meaning these storyies shared or commanded or expected anything from the reader, these books however offered insight to God's world in how the world works. to know these books well was to navigate the world God created with wisdom and blessing. to the fact that job mentions satan means to communicate there is a being who serves God that rather than bless you to get what he wants will curse you any chance he gets.

No one of serious bible study would through out the books of wisdom in an OT review. They gave the reader insite into God they would never otherwise have.

You seem to be furious that you over look a whole book dedicated to satan when you made your claim there is no mention of satan in the OT.. What a fool you are for just parroting what other people say without checking anything... seriously sport a whole book of interaction between God and the literal spelled out 'satan' in his NT form right smack in the middle of the OT and what 40 some odd chapters too!!! it' not like anyone who ever opened a bible before could miss it. it is one of the larger OT books!!!

oh but that's right you only pretend to be smart by clicking the first link google pops up with!!! 

hey but at least you spelled everything right, and that is all that really counts! that is the truest form of intelligence, not being able to have a topical conversation! 

#Fakeposter #douchebaggotcaughtpretendingtobesmartwhileusinggoogleinsteadofbrain!

Drich,

In the United States, there are over 3,100 4-year degree institutions of higher learning, with over several hundred major colleges and universities. At NONE of those institutions are your religious, Christian fundamentalist views taken seriously, let alone taught.

Dawn