(January 30, 2019 at 3:20 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(January 30, 2019 at 1:14 pm)Drich Wrote: So you perfer the muslim god of 9-11-01? (and the last 20 years of gulf war)

what about david koresh as god?

these are so much better to you so as to disparage the God of the bible?

seriously were you not alive durning waco? did you not know he was suppoes to be Jesus' 2nd comming? do you know nothing of the taliban or isis? is this the god you would embrace?

................?

I'm an atheist, Drich, lol.  The question of what gods I would prefer is a non-starter.

BIG pic sport! not talking about you I'm speaking of those who worship god. more over those who (for the lack of a better term) worship the god of mainstream Christianity found in the bible. would you rather 1/2 the world's population see you as the Taliban sees you? would you rather 1/2 the planet's population see you as David koeshians saw everyone outside the compound, and were armed to the teeth? No, well again that is why we have this book because it describes the God of the bible. if one wishes to worship the god of the bible then he can not vary from the bible's promises and descriptions.

Now how we confirm there is a god that aligns itself with the bible we have discussed adnausium.

Quote: Hell, it's not like I'd "embrace" any of these gods even if they existed - I'm pretty sure I've shared my mind with you on this before?  

here's the thing.. every religious movement has something that powers it. whether it be a man and when the man dies so too does the religion/koresh being an example of that. Soceity also takes the role of god, but again when soceity fails so too does the religion the egyptians the greeks and romans are great examples of that. then comes the more carry aspect of religion as God is not the only supernatural deity around which is why again we must stick with the god of the bible lest we be fooled by satan or one of his guys. when satan supports a religion it leaves fire sin and misery in it's wake. but it also provides the signs and wonders some need.

Quote:You're just confirming my comments with each of these posts, though.   It's not like it would matter what gods you would prefer either.

sure it does. there are several forms of God to choose from. you got the god of islam the god of extreme islam (which btw is the same guy even if most will not admit it) the god of the jews, the hundreds of gods of the hindu the generations of ancestors of the shinto and the God of the bible. each promising different things.

Quote:  If david koresh actually were a god, then david koresh would be a god..

David koresh claim to be Christ incarnate. meaning Jesus Christ in his second coming. for the 50 or so people he had in his compound he was. again there are gods/not real to various degrees of fail, and there is the God of the bible. who has full filled his promises to those who seek him.

Quote:.but clearly you'd still be screaming about your magic book in that event.  Similarly, that you prefer the magic book to some other existent god doesn't alter the fact that the magic book has been thoroughly discredited.  Finally, if there were no god (spoiler alert, there isn't) you'd still prefer your magic book.  

you guys say the bible is discredited all the time and may even point to some atheist youtube hero, but in 20+ years of doing this the only thing that comes close was the annodated bible. which within 6 months there was a christian version that refuted every single point the annotadated bible made, call the annodated bible answered i believe. line by line verse by verse chapter by chapter book by book every single objection made was explained away or corrected in translation. No other atheist work has ever has even tried to take on the whole bible. Now i do know some like dawson or carrier like to point out what they see as a contradiction, but I have never seen one of those points hold up to scrutiny. But let's say one or even the dozen or so I have seen where all right.. how does that make the whole collection of books wrong? that is a huge leap of faith! remember reader's digest? it was a small weekly or month publication my grandparents got. in it was a 12 or so short stories or clips from larger novels to give on a sample of what is being published. The bible works the same way. yes it is bound under one cover and has one title (which means book of books) but let's say you are starting out and you can not make a time line jive in your head.. does that mean everything else is wrong? does that mean the time line itself is wrong? all it means is there is information we are not privy too. The expectation that the bible is a formal text book whether that book be about history or science is false. The bible is a map that leads us to God. one we have found and vetted what we find with the bible.. the bible is scarcely needed after that.

For example I only use the bible to verify what God directly gives me now. MEaning I'll ask a question God gives me a direction and if I am not 100% sure about this answer I will look it up to see if the narrative fits. best example is my reading of genesis that assimilates evolution. I must of read the first 5 chapters of genesis 20 times hitting it from different angles.

Quote:As a side note, pursuant to the above....can we get confirmation from you that the jewish god, the various christian gods, and the islamic god are not..in fact, the same god?

yes if you are willing to read these holy books or google what I have to say. Remember the term God of the bible as it ties christianity to judaism but excludes islam.

In the bible the jews have three words they use to reference God.
El-ohim which is a generic term like the word God in our language. it often refers to God the Father but can be used to describe a false god like the god of thunder.
yhwh (or the word or the word the means god or the word of god.) the jews took out the vowels so the name could not be spoken, but refered to as 'the word' we filled in those possible vowels and the best possible name would be yahweh or transliterated jehovah this to the jews again is the literal name of God. In john 1:1 John says the word (yhwh) was with El-him/Father God and the word was God.. rather than me do this from memory:
1 Before the world began, the Word[a] was there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was there with God in the beginning. 3 Everything was made through him, and nothing was made without him. 4 In him there was life, and that life was a light for the people of the world. 5 The light[b] shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not defeated[c] it.

6 There was a man named John, who was sent by God. 7 He came to tell people about the light. Through him all people could hear about the light and believe. 8 John was not the light. But he came to tell people about the light. 9 The true light was coming into the world. This is the true light that gives light to all people.

10 The Word was already in the world. The world was made through him, but the world did not know him. 11 He came to the world that was his own. And his own people did not accept him. 12 But some people did accept him. They believed in him, and he gave them the right to become children of God. 13 They became God’s children, but not in the way babies are usually born. It was not because of any human desire or plan. They were born from God himself.

14 The Word became a man and lived among us. We saw his divine greatness—the greatness that belongs to the only Son of the Father. The Word was full of grace and truth. 15 John told people about him. He said loudly, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘The one who is coming after me is greater than I am, because he was living before I was even born.’”

16 Yes, the Word was full of grace and truth, and from him we all received one blessing after another.[d] 17 That is, the law was given to us through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.[e]

the long and short of this is the word... yahwh is Jesus. he was there from the beginning meaning genesis 1:1. In fact if you read genesis 1:1 you will see the father doing the 7 day creation and at the same time genesis 2 reports that yhwh/jesus is doing everything gensis 2 records.

the third word for God is Adoni or the literal translation my lord. but it does not directly refer to elohim or yhwh, as elohim is recorded in paslms speaking to adoni.

Three words from a jewish perspective all means one God/being. From a christian perspective we have the Father Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit in these three titles/names.

In islam there is only Allah/elohim. From gen 2 forward the hebrews recognise yhwh, so basically islam is saying anything after gen 2 is wrong/not the same God.

Quote:*Waco.  I was, yeah.  A few years later I got a job breaching buildings in much the same manner, lol. Those Davidians really could have used some training.

If I remember right those Dravidians repelled the dynamic entry, killed all but one or two of the entry team, which had the feds send in a literal tank to know down 1/2 a building which the davidians set fire to denying the feds any access to arrests intellegence gathering or even wepons or seasures of any kind. plus in their minds the went to heaven as the burned.. wonder if they figured out why they are still burning

You're still yammering about your preferences like they matter or that a god would give a shit and defer to them.  They don't.  More than half of the world already sees me as the taliban sees me, and more than half of the us has a less favorable impression of me than they would have of some rando talibani.

I don't care about that any more than an existent god would care about your preference for book worship and book worshipping fan fiction.  

You're putting in all the work towards proving my contention.  That you and those like you would call a god a liar to it's face because you would rather some other thing be true.   Good luck with that shit.  

Quote:If I remember right those Dravidians repelled the dynamic entry, killed all but one or two of the entry team, which had the feds send in a literal tank to know down 1/2 a building which the davidians set fire to denying the feds any access to arrests intellegence gathering or even wepons or seasures of any kind. plus in their minds the went to heaven as the burned.. wonder if they figured out why they are still burning

In an engagement that overwhelmingly favored the occupants of the compound, 82 davidians lost their lives inflicting a paltry 4 casualties on the breaching force.  You'll have to excuse me for laughing my fucking ass off at their incompetence.

Here's what I wonder, though, why are you talking about burning?  Hell is just a separation from god..remember?  You bickered with me endlessly about this in order to pretend that you don't worship a fictional sadist. Bringing us back round to the OP's dilemma. How to talk to nutballs like you. At some point we just have to accept that you'll say whatever may be convenient, with no requirement that it be true or consistent.

This one's easy: don't.

(January 30, 2019 at 11:38 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

(January 30, 2019 at 9:44 pm)Macoleco Wrote:

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I agree with OP. Once you start asking the hard questions many believers get angry.

As someone who once believed, I can assure you that you will never understand their logic, because there is none.

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In order to believe in God and in a religion, you need to ignore many contradictions, which most of the time means " I do not know the answer, but I know there is one because God exists, so its okay".

I only discuss about religion with a few believers who are close to me and I know wont get angry. Otherwise, I never do.

"In order to believe in God"  - There never has been an atheist, or ever will be. In Romans 1, Apostle Paul stated there are no atheists --- 18  “who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19  For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them".   There are those who say there is no God or show me the evidence (creation itself is one of the pieces of evidence). Did anyone think that the 'old nature' which is at enmity with God, would go away quietly?  They resist God's moral authority by suppressing the truth. It's a mistake, to try to convince anyone in the existence of God since they already know that. 

Like the poet said: truth is like dust, just can’t get rid of that stuff; it just keeps hanging around.

Paul is addressing ungodliness.  Atheism is nongodliness.

Missouri is famous for its mules. Some people even keep them as pets. One elderly lady bought a mule and wanted to have it trained. She checked with several trainers and didn't like the rather rough methods they described in their training regimen. Then she found a trainer who told her the trick was to just get the mule's attention. She loaded her pet up and took it to the trainer. He grabbed the mule by the harness and smacked it right between the eyes with a 2X4 board.

"What are you doing!" she screamed.

"Getting the mule's attention, ma'am."

Same thing with the true believers. You just gotta get their attention.

(February 6, 2019 at 8:39 pm)Dr H Wrote:

(January 30, 2019 at 11:38 pm)snowtracks Wrote: "In order to believe in God"  - There never has been an atheist, or ever will be. In Romans 1, Apostle Paul stated there are no atheists --- 18  “who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19  For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them".   There are those who say there is no God or show me the evidence (creation itself is one of the pieces of evidence). Did anyone think that the 'old nature' which is at enmity with God, would go away quietly?  They resist God's moral authority by suppressing the truth. It's a mistake, to try to convince anyone in the existence of God since they already know that. 

Like the poet said: truth is like dust, just can’t get rid of that stuff; it just keeps hanging around.

Paul is addressing ungodliness.  Atheism is nongodliness.nongodliness' - Haven't ever come across that before, but moving right along... 

Nongodliness - Haven't seen this before, perhaps made-up, but moving right along.

Well, here are the verses: Romans 1:18-19   18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.   19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 

And then, creation itself is the evidence: vs 20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Without scripture, it would be concluded atheists actually believe what they are saying about God's existence.

-and with scripture, one concludes inanity.  Hell of an argument against scripture, gratz.

(February 6, 2019 at 11:54 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

(February 6, 2019 at 8:39 pm)Dr H Wrote: Paul is addressing ungodliness.  Atheism is nongodliness.nongodliness' - Haven't ever come across that before, but moving right along... 

Nongodliness - Haven't seen this before, perhaps made-up, but moving right along.

Well, here are the verses: Romans 1:18-19   18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.   19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 

And then, creation itself is the evidence: vs 20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Without scripture, it would be concluded atheists actually believe what they are saying about God's existence.

Yes, there really are people who do not believe in deities of any sort. Really.

And if your scripture says otherwise, then your scripture is simply wrong. It's up to you as to what you want to do about that fact.

(February 6, 2019 at 11:54 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

(February 6, 2019 at 8:39 pm)Dr H Wrote: Paul is addressing ungodliness.  Atheism is nongodliness.nongodliness' - Haven't ever come across that before, but moving right along... 

Nongodliness - Haven't seen this before, perhaps made-up, but moving right along.

Quite simple, really.  "ungodly:" literally means disobeying God, or going against God.  
An atheist does not believe that there are any gods.  
It is impossible to disobey or go against something which one doesn't even believe exists.

"Non-" expresses negation or absence.  Hence "nongodliness" = "acting in the absence of god".

Quote:19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 

Saying this does not make it so.

Quote:And then, creation itself is the evidence: vs 20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

IOW, "God exists, because creation exists, and God made creation."

This is circular reasoning, and therefore logically invalid.

Quote:Without scripture, it would be concluded atheists actually believe what they are saying about God's existence.

I find it difficult to parse that sentence into meaningful concepts.

What an atheist says, is that they lack belief in any deity.
That would be a simple statement of fact about what they do not believe.
The existence of scripture is completely immaterial to that state of affairs.

(February 7, 2019 at 4:15 pm)Dr H Wrote:

(February 6, 2019 at 11:54 pm)snowtracks Wrote: Nongodliness - Haven't seen this before, perhaps made-up, but moving right along.

Quite simple, really.  "ungodly:" literally means disobeying God, or going against God.  
An atheist does not believe that there are any gods.  

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It is impossible to disobey or go against something which one doesn't even believe exists.

"Non-" expresses negation or absence.  Hence "nongodliness" = "acting in the absence of god".

Quote:19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 

Saying this does not make it so.

Quote:And then, creation itself is the evidence: vs 20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

IOW, "God exists, because creation exists, and God made creation."

This is circular reasoning, and therefore logically invalid.

Quote:Without scripture, it would be concluded atheists actually believe what they are saying about God's existence.

I find it difficult to parse that sentence into meaningful concepts.

What an atheist says, is that they lack belief in any deity.
That would be a simple statement of fact about what they do not believe.
The existence of scripture is completely immaterial to that state of affairs.

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"An atheist does not believe that there are any gods.'  Therefore they believe there are gods.