(February 18, 2019 at 8:50 pm)fredd bear Wrote:

(February 18, 2019 at 7:21 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Blunt yes, nasty no. Truthful by every stretch.

Maybe you missed the part of the book where he made it clear, if invited to holy places, and he accepted he'd follow the customs in person.

The entire book was not anti human rights, but saying that religion does cause more divisions in humanity than it claims to solve.

I look at Hitchens as merely a blunt version of Sagan.

I said nasty and I meant nasty,

Imo Hitchens was a bigot. He made claims about an entire group of people. viz Muslims. I think that's the very definition of bigotry,. 

Obviously, his and my life experiences were different. I lived in a Muslim country,(Malaysia) with many Muslim friends.I never saw anything approaching the kind of  extreme behaviour he mentions. YES such behaviour could at times be seen in KL, which has religious police.AND a Muslim apostate will be put in prison for 2 years.  That does not represent ALL Malay Muslims, let alone all Muslims everywhere..

The people I knew were not even all that devout; no praying 5 times a day, not always even going to mosque on Friday ,,women did not wear head coverings.


 I think the linked article quoted below is worth reading-

While a scientist like Richard Dawkins might be forgiven for not having his philosophic/aesthetic house in order, no such tolerance should be allowed for his notorious comrade-in-arms Christopher Hitchens. In spite of the fact that Hitchens regularly invokes the authority of empiricism and reason—he condemns anything that “contradicts science or outrages reason,” and he concedes something that no poet would: that “proteins and acids ... constitute our nature”—he was not a scientist but a literary critic, a journalist, and a public intellectual. So, you would think that the perspective of the arts, literature, and philosophy would find a prominent place in his thought. But that is not the case. He proposes to clear away religion in the name of science and reason. Literature’s function in this brave new world is to depose the Bible and provide an opportunity to study the “eternal ethical questions.”

Hitchens’s "God Is Not Great" is an intellectually shameful book. To be intellectually shameful is to be dishonest, to tell less than you know, or ought to know, and to shape what you present in a way that misrepresents the real state of affairs. In this sense, and in Hitchens’s own term, his book lacks “decency.” (You may think that I lack decency for attacking a man so recently deceased, but I do no more than what Hitchens himself did. Speaking of Jerry Falwell, Hitchens pointedly refuses a “compassionate word” for this “departed fraud.”)


https://www.salon.com/2013/06/23/christo...no_favors/

So if your god asked you to murder your own son you'd do it?

Is that your definition of "decent"?

Sorry, but when he criticized the Abraham/Issac story he was right. Just like if someone asked me to murder my mother, my response would be "No and fuck you".

Hitchens was blunt and blasphemous and offensive. I agree with that. But he also said, "I hope I have never unintentionally offended anyone."

Bad claims are not always debunked through Mr Rogers debate.

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(February 18, 2019 at 2:58 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 18, 2019 at 2:53 pm)LastPoet Wrote: And what part of a military service didn't you you understand, flyboy? It comes with the job. And feel sorry for your great indoctrination. And respect, you should know that respect is earned, not a given. Too bad you don't undertand that. the kid wasn't in the armed forces, so fuck of with your wings.

I had teachers that earned that, and I would comply. Others, more authoritarian, did not. Your silly nationalistic rethoric doesn't fly here.

Perhaps one day you will understand that, but, I fear your pride is damaging your thoughts. Read this carefully again, Respect is earned, not a given. I guess if a teacher told you to bow down and drop your pants, you would be running for a table and put a bamboo on your mouth just to to not bite your tongue.

WTF?  He was only told to stand up. I've told you a couple of times now that no one makes anyone say the pledge.

If you lived in North Korea or in WW2 Germany, you'd understand how fucking stupid this sounds.

The entire point of the west, isn't to force anyone to blindly kiss your ass.

It is still a form of setting up social pecking orders.

"I didn't say the black person couldn't sit on the bus, but they do have to ride in the back of the bus."

Even if the kid stands, but doesn't have to repeat the words, others, including the teacher sees it and social pressure to conform would still be a mental form of forcing conformity on the child.

And according to the article I'd argue, even if he had stood, she still would have gotten angry for him not reciting it according to her reaction afterwords. 

Again, it isn't about respect one bit. It is about not using government to indoctrinate anyone.

Thread should be titled, "Kid arrested for unruly behavior following a refusal to stand for the pledge"

This type of dishonest reporting is just wrong. That being said, I feel that, on multiple levels, the school completely mishandled the situation.

(February 19, 2019 at 5:18 am)PRJA93 Wrote: Thread should be titled, "Kid arrested for unruly behavior following a refusal to stand for the pledge"

This type of dishonest reporting is just wrong. That being said, I feel that, on multiple levels, the school completely mishandled the situation.

If the unruly behavior was provoked by the teacher, which I suspect is what happened, then they might as well say the kid was arrested for not standing for the pledge and for being black.

(February 19, 2019 at 5:25 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(February 19, 2019 at 5:18 am)PRJA93 Wrote: Thread should be titled, "Kid arrested for unruly behavior following a refusal to stand for the pledge"

This type of dishonest reporting is just wrong. That being said, I feel that, on multiple levels, the school completely mishandled the situation.

If the unruly behavior was provoked by the teacher, which I suspect is what happened, then they might as well say the kid was arrested for not standing for the pledge and for being black.

Bolded by me. So you're applying your own projection to the situation and then judging it based on that. Nonsense. I'm not even going to explain why that's completely wrong, even if the teacher did provoke it. Stop with the race-bating bullshit.

This kid clearly has some behavioral issues; he threatened to beat the teacher and have her fired. That's a little nutty for a kid to say, especially at what, 11 years old? That being said, a teacher can arbitrarily suspend you or give you detention for "insubordination," so this isn't anything new. I can't tell you how many times I was in trouble for "insubordination." I guess I should've called the ACLU. It's funny because I would just make the teacher look dumb in front of everyone (or at least was usually able to) and never in my life threatened to beat a teacher up or have someone fired.

The kid obviously didn't have the best reaction. And maybe someone in the school should still be reprimanded, but let's be clear, he was NOT arrested for refusing to stand for the pledge. Period.

The problem is my suspicion isn't blind.

From that article:

Quote:The affidavit stated that the student threatened to beat the teacher, but Talbot told Bay News 9 that her son did no such thing.

Replace "black kid with probable conduct disorder" with "white kid with conduct disorder". Do you want to bet that the white kid would've been treated with kid gloves by the authorities and treated with dignity and understanding even if he acted out initially? Yeah, based on the stats, probably, yeah. Even black 11-year-old kids have to deal with overpolicing.

(February 19, 2019 at 6:33 am)Grandizer Wrote: The problem is my suspicion isn't blind.

From that article:

Quote:The affidavit stated that the student threatened to beat the teacher, but Talbot told Bay News 9 that her son did no such thing.

Replace "black kid with probable conduct disorder" with "white kid with conduct disorder". Do you want to bet that the white kid would've been treated with kid gloves by the authorities and treated with dignity and understanding even if he acted out initially? Yeah, based on the stats, probably, yeah. Even black 11-year-old kids have to deal with overpolicing.

The problem is you're blinder than your suspicions. Oh yea, let's just take the mother's word for it. I'm sure she's totally impartial here and has NO motivation to lie for her child. Or yea, let's just assume that the child was totally honest with his mother about everything he screamed at the teacher. Jesus dude are you that fucking stupid? What is your obsession with making everything about race? I'm truly starting to believe that you are racist; you seem to see the world through a very troubling lens. One of the problems in our country concerning race is with people like you.

Stop using "what-about-isms" to back up your nonsensical point; I'm not falling for it. I know white kids who were arrested for refusing to leave a classroom and they never even made threats of violence or threatened to have people fired. Your idea of "if the kid was white" (which is a what-about-ism) is total nonsense.

Provide evidence for THIS SPECIFIC situation that shows it was about race and I'll gladly shut the fuck up. Did a single teacher or school official say anything about the kid being black or African-Americans in general mention anything about race? Until then you're talking nonsense. End of discussion.

Anyway, as I was saying, the kid was not arrested for refusing to stand for the pledge. The title of the thread is incorrect. There seem to be some obvious issues with how the school conducted themselves and I hope those issues are resolved, but this is simply inaccurate reporting.

The blind telling someone else they're blind.

Here, read and educate yourself:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/4/5/...racism-gao

If it's subtle racism, it's subtle, so you're not going to get any evidence pointing to overt displays of racism.

I love how you like to criticize "people like me" and accuse them of being sanctimonious pricks, when you yourself are one of the most sanctimonious fuckers I have ever encountered on this forum. The irony of it all.

(February 19, 2019 at 7:48 am)Grandizer Wrote: The blind telling someone else they're blind.

Here, read and educate yourself:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/4/5/...racism-gao

If it's subtle racism, it's subtle, so you're not going to get any evidence pointing to overt displays of racism.

I love how you like to criticize "people like me" and accuse them of being sanctimonious pricks, when you yourself are one of the most sanctimonious fuckers I have ever encountered on this forum. The irony of it all.

That you're too cowardly to even quote me shows that you know how ridiculous you sound; how funny. So you're obviously backing off on your first point (about the mother claiming her child "never said that") because you now get how dumb it was to say that, although it's alarming to me that you didn't realize how stupid that was before saying it... So now you're just sticking with the second point... That black children also have to deal with over-policing.

The issue here is, this: I'm actually well aware of these statistics and well aware of the fact that minorities face a disproportionate amount of discrimination in this country. It's terrible, honestly. I don't really think any sensible person denies that, actually.

But what does that have to do with this situation? How do you know the people's intent behind punishing this child, even if the punishment is unjust? See, you're the type of person who assumes that if a child is black and is punished, it must be because they're black. THAT is the fucking problem on the other side of the spectrum. Correlation does not imply causation; not every black child who's punished is punished because they're black. Not every white child that gets away with it gets away with it because they're white. It's people like you who try SO FUCKING HARD to prove you're not racist that are some of the most troubling. Because you ARE fucking racist. You see the world through black/white minority/majority CONSTANTLY. That is fucking racist.

Simply yelling, "this school is racist" does not make it so. That's what you fucking morons don't seem to get. Making a claim that someone or something is racist simply does not make it so.  But you won't accept that because it doesn't fit your narrative.

If there is evidence that this was racially motivated, I'll be the first person to say fire anyone involved and make sure they never teach again. But your nonsense is unfounded and I'm sick of hearing it. Holy fuck you're dumb. The funny part is, a lot of black people tend to laugh at people like you. It's ironic, actually. One of my best friends growing up was black and would immediately play the race card whenever he got into trouble and it got him out of trouble like 90% of the time. I thought it was fuckin hilarious, honestly. And people like you eat that shit up, which is even funnier. The real issue with that kind of behavior, now that I'm older and understand just a little bit more about the world, is evident and I see how problematic that behavior is.

"Playing the race card" legitimately makes it harder to smoke out real racism; maybe it's the sort of "boy cries wolf," mentality but I'm not really sure and don't pretend to have any answers. Playing the race card is a legitimately real thing. I'm not saying that that's even what happened here because I don't know. I wasn't there. Unlike you I'm not, with a total lack of awareness, projecting my own views onto this situation. I have no fucking clue with happened here, my whole point was that the kid was not arrested FOR refusing to stand for the pledge. That's simply not accurate. But I'm not assuming anything about race or intent or anything else whereas you seem to be dead set on doing just that.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:08 am)PRJA93 Wrote: That you're too cowardly to even quote me shows that you know how ridiculous you sound; how funny.

The hell are you on about? It's clear I was addressing you, you idiot. Have you ever thought that, depending on the device being used, that quoting piece by piece may not always be convenient? But if you want a piece-by-piece quote, so be it.

Quote:So you're obviously backing off on your first point (about the mother claiming her child "never said that") because you now get how dumb it was to say that, although it's alarming to me that you didn't realize how stupid that was before saying it...

Well, excuse me for not being nitpicky enough. I gave you the other side of the story to keep things balanced. If you want to take the police's word for it, go right ahead. After all, it's clear that cops have never tried to cover their ass in court by making false statements. </sarcasm>

Quote:So now you're just sticking with the second point... That black children also have to deal with over-policing.

Mind-reading, mind-reading, mind-reading.

Quote:The issue here is, this: I'm actually well aware of these statistics and well aware of the fact that minorities face a disproportionate amount of discrimination in this country. It's terrible, honestly. I don't really think any sensible person denies that, actually.

Yeah, it's just in this specific case, it was something else, right?

Quote:But what does that have to do with this situation? How do you know the people's intent behind punishing this child, even if the punishment is unjust? See, you're the type of person who assumes that if a child is black and is punished, it must be because they're black. THAT is the fucking problem on the other side of the spectrum. Correlation does not imply causation; not every black child who's punished is punished because they're black. Not every white child that gets away with it gets away with it because they're white.

That certainly is logical (not being sarcastic here, I really mean it), but the problem is that we're dealing with probabilities and stats, and it is reasonable to argue that subtle racism may have been involved because that's what the stats show. It's not 100% certainty, but you can bet your ass that was it.

So to be clear, I never said with absoluteness that it must be because the kid was black that he was arrested. I spoke in terms of betting and was actually being facetious at the start.

Quote:Simply yelling, "this school is racist" does not make it so. That's what you fucking morons don't seem to get. Making a claim that someone or something is racist simply does not make it so.  But you won't accept that because it doesn't fit your narrative.

And simply denying that this and that are racist does not mean this and that are not racist. It goes both ways. So we go with the stats, and we make inferences taking into account the details of the specific situation at hand.

Quote:If there is evidence that this was racially motivated, I'll be the first person to say fire anyone involved and make sure they never teach again. But your nonsense is unfounded and I'm sick of hearing. Holy fuck you're dumb.

What kind of evidence for subtle racism would you even consider to be evidence in the specific sense? Are you asking for evidence, or absolute proofs?

Quote:The funny part is, a lot of black people tend to laugh at people like you.

Like who?

Quote:It's ironic, actually.

Ha ... ha ... ha?

Quote:One of my best friends growing up was black and would immediately play the race card whenever he got into trouble and it got him out of trouble like 90% of the time. I thought it was fuckin hilarious, honestly.

Yeah, nice anecdote you have there. Very convincing.

Quote:And people like you eat that shit up, which is even funnier. The real issue with that kind of behavior, now that I'm older and understand just a little bit more about the world, I see how problematic that behavior is.

So you're a guru then with decades of experience and insight, eh? How old are you again?

Quote:"Playing the race card" legitimately makes it harder to smoke out real racism; maybe it's the sort of "boy cries wolf," mentality but I'm not really sure and don't pretend to have any answers.

When did you ever smoke out real racism? Most of the time, all I've ever seen you do was play apologetics for both racism and sexism, and accuse "people like me" of playing the race card. And when you have denounced them, it's only when they're "really real". Almost as if you don't think that racism and sexism is as prevalent and systemic as they really are.

Now how's that for quoting? Have I honored you enough with diligent addressing of every worthy point you make, o wise one?

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: The hell are you on about? It's clear I was addressing you, you idiot. Have you ever thought that, depending on the device being used, that quoting piece by piece may not always be convenient? But if you want a piece-by-piece quote, so be it.

If you're addressing me, quote me.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: Well, excuse me for not being nitpicky enough. I gave you the other side of the story to keep things balanced. If you want to take the police's word for it, go right ahead. After all, it's clear that cops have never tried to cover their ass in court by making false statements. </sarcasm>

I'm not "taking the police's word for it." Them arresting the student goes in line with the claim that threats were being made by the student and that his behavior was unruly and out of control. Your claims that they must be making false statements to cover their ass is a COMPLETELY baseless assumption. Oh, but wait, you're not CLAIMING that, you're just saying it could possibly be true! Making things up to cover your ass. How ironic.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: Yeah, it's just in this specific case, it was something else, right?

I don't know; I wasn't there. Once again, YOU'RE the one hellbent on assuming intent here, and you're only quoting statistics because they help your narrative, which anyone with half a brain can see is nonsense. I wasn't even fucking TALKING about race until you brought it up. LMAO. You are so fucking stupid it's funny. My only point was correcting the title of the thread, that he was arrested for behavior following the incident concerning the pledge. Which shouldn't even be an incident, people shouldn't have to stand for the pledge if they don't want. That was my point. YOU brought race up. Your racist ass made this about race. Not me

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: That certainly is logical (not being sarcastic here, I really mean it), but the problem is that we're dealing with probabilities and stats, and it is reasonable to argue that subtle racism may have been involved because that's what the stats show. It's not 100% certainty, but you can bet your ass that was it.

So to be clear, I never said with absoluteness that it must be because the kid was black that he was arrested. I spoke in terms of betting and was actually being facetious at the start.

So, because it's statistically possible, in your mind, you can "bet your ass" that it had to do with race? Once again, what fucked up, twisted world do you live in? You see the world through black or white, minority or majority, not me.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: And simply denying that this and that are racist does not mean this and that are not racist. It goes both ways. So we go with the stats, and we make inferences taking into account the details of the specific situation at hand.

Sure, it could be racist. But that doesn't mean, "so we go with the stats," that's YOUR reality. That's not the world I live in and that's simply not how I look at people. Once again exposing your covert racism. Because you clearly want to take specific details of the situation at hand, accepting them at face value because they support your view, while ignoring other details of the situation. You are cherry-picking which parts of this story hold up the "this was a racially motivated incident" narrative.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: What kind of evidence for subtle racism would you even consider to be evidence in the specific sense? Are you asking for evidence, or absolute proofs?

What evidence do you have? Clearly none.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: Like who?

Huh?

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: Yeah, nice anecdote you have there. Very convincing.

Not really concerned if you find the anecdote "convincing." It happened plenty of times. Though I bet if I had an anecdote about a racist white teacher who picked on black students, you'd gobble that the fuck up. I actually do have one of those too.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: So you're a guru then with decades of experience and insight, eh? How old are you again?

This is just pathetic dude. Just stop.

(February 19, 2019 at 8:59 am)Grandizer Wrote: When did you ever smoke out real racism? Most of the time, all I've ever seen you do was play apologetics for both racism and sexism, and accuse "people like me" of playing the race card. And when you have denounced them, it's only when they're "really real". Almost as if you don't think that racism and sexism is as prevalent and systemic as they really are.

Now how's that for quoting? Have I honored you enough with diligent addressing of every worthy point you make, o wise one?

Play apologetics? The FUCK are you babbling about? We need to address real racism and sexism where it actually exists. Not attempt to smoke out racism (interesting projection there on your part you ambulance chasing fucking idiot) where it doesn't even exist, then go on to crucify anyone and everyone who disagrees with you that said situation is racist. When have I confronted racism in my real life? I doubt if I told you about different situations you'd even give a fuck or believe me. Because, once again, it doesn't fit your narrative. The idea that I stood up for my friend when a racist teacher tried to lie about my friend smoking pot behind the school doesn't help you, so you would write it off as me "trying to prove I'm not racist" anyway, which is ironic, as you are clearly the one who sees the world through this racial lens that I simply don't.

And yet you have STILL made no valid points about this specific situation containing any real trace of racism! How fucking talented must you be to spin things this hard and not get dizzy from it? Bravo, granddouchebag, bravo.