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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 3:11 am
(February 18, 2019 at 4:22 am)Deesse23 Wrote: (February 18, 2019 at 2:51 am)Godscreated Wrote: It is divinely inspired no one man could put together a book like the Bible, let lone many mean over a few thousand years. Its not one book but many, and no two christian denominations can agree on which books exactly should be part of The True Canon.
Wrong nearly all denominations see the Bible as God inspired and complete as it is. Yes there are many books contained within the greater book it is an example of what I said before, God inspired.
Deesse23 Wrote:There were multiple councils and synods to determine which books are "in" and which arent. As far as i know, God wasnt part of any of those. If you wanna claim that all those people were divinely inspired, coming up with different canons, go ahead.
God was overseeing the whole process, not only were the writers God inspired so were those who God used to put together the greater book. God wouldn't have done one without the other, this is only logical even on a human level. The people who are trying to incorporate different books into the Bible are working unaided by God and for their own selfish reasons, they are not interested in what God wants.
Deesse23 Wrote:And....those books were written within a mere one thousand years, not more. Is age or duration a yardstick for determining the veracity of religious claims for you?
Moses penned the first five books, that was more than a thousand years before the birth of Christ Jesus. Duration? God has been in control of His plan from before the beginning of time, God has always been and by the way they are not claims they are spiritual facts for those who want what God is offering. For those who do not want what God is offering they are confusing and out of reach, why should God make sense out of what He has planned to those who will reject Him.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 3:28 am
Well, this is technicolor precious
(February 19, 2019 at 1:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: Quote:Abaddon_ire
Um no. Fredds link gives a date of approx. 1300 BC slap bang in the middle of the bronze age.
Here are some quotes from the wikipedia page: <snippage of bovine crap>
Nice dodge. Instead of addressing the issue at hand, hurl a wall of irrelevant quotes. That is so lame.
(February 19, 2019 at 1:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: In our own time this tradition continues. Off the top of my head I can name Adam Phillips, Slavoj Zizek, Pierre Badiou, and Martha Nussbaum as interesting thinkers who have retold stories from Shakespeare or Greek drama to get across their own contemporary messages. So did JRR Tolkien, JK Rowling and GRR Martin. Doesn't make dragons real just because they wrote about them.
(February 19, 2019 at 1:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: You don't have to be Derrida to think that no one can read the original story -- we all read the story plus all the interpretations which have come since. So why have you not? Because it is quite obvious that you have only the superficial understanding from whatever sunday school you attended.
(February 19, 2019 at 1:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: Thus even if the redactors of the Torah were using older stories, there is no reason to think of them at the intellectual level of illiterate Bronze Age goat herders. They were clearly not like that. You don't have to like the stories, or give them any importance in your own life, but condemning the redactors for being something they're not is bad scholarship. OK that passage has so much stupid in it that it is a challenge to unpick it. First, you claim that the holy word of your god had human editors. This alone puts you at odds with roughly 30% of christianity. Next, my claim (backed by evidence I note, unlike yours) was that people were literate long before you magic book. Of course they were not "like that" I claimed that literacy long predated the bible. You constructed a stupid strawman and promptly failed to even knock that over. Well done on the double fail. And in a final flourish you give...
(February 19, 2019 at 1:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: You don't have to like the stories Sure, there is nothing to like.
(February 19, 2019 at 1:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: or give them any importance in your own life Theres your problem. I am legally all signed up to a code of ethical practice. In addition to that I have a personal moral code. If I were stupid enough to believe in your bumper book of magic, I would have to chuck both by the wayside. You are quite happy to toss aside your own morals in favour of a magic sky fairy as described in a magic book. I am not. Which of us is the more moral?
(February 19, 2019 at 1:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: but condemning the redactors for being something they're not is bad scholarship. See now you are claiming that your magic book is actually not the holy word of gunderscored. I hope you are intellectually suitably equipped to spot the glaring problem with that without needing me to paint by numbers. Or possibly crayon. How low can we go?
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 4:05 am
(February 19, 2019 at 3:28 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: See now you are claiming that your magic book is actually not the holy word of gunderscored.
It may be that you have me mixed up with someone else. I have never been a Christian. I have been talking about historical facts and sources, not the truth of the stories.
Anyway, thank you for prompting me to think about this today. The goat-herder quote always seemed unfair to me, kind of like "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" -- fun to type but not of any help to people who want to be accurate. I respect fredd for his willingness to walk back the claim. And the opportunity to think about why it's wrong has clarified the issue for me.
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 5:56 am
(This post was last modified: February 19, 2019 at 5:56 am by Fake Messiah.)
(February 19, 2019 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: Moses penned the first five books, that was more than a thousand years before the birth of Christ Jesus.
GC, you again demonstrate that you don't know shit about the Bible. I guess I could say you embarrass yourself, but you are already a joke, so... Imagine Moses writing this Deuteronomy 34:5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
Or, according to GC, Moses also wrote this: Numbers 12:3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
Really, GC, read the Bible before pretending to be an expert on it.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 7:33 am
(February 19, 2019 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: (February 18, 2019 at 4:22 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Its not one book but many, and no two christian denominations can agree on which books exactly should be part of The True Canon.
Wrong nearly all denominations see the Bible as God inspired and complete as it is. Yes there are many books contained within the greater book it is an example of what I said before, God inspired.
Deesse23 Wrote:There were multiple councils and synods to determine which books are "in" and which arent. As far as i know, God wasnt part of any of those. If you wanna claim that all those people were divinely inspired, coming up with different canons, go ahead.
God was overseeing the whole process, not only were the writers God inspired so were those who God used to put together the greater book. God wouldn't have done one without the other, this is only logical even on a human level. The people who are trying to incorporate different books into the Bible are working unaided by God and for their own selfish reasons, they are not interested in what God wants.
Deesse23 Wrote:And....those books were written within a mere one thousand years, not more. Is age or duration a yardstick for determining the veracity of religious claims for you?
Moses penned the first five books, that was more than a thousand years before the birth of Christ Jesus. Duration? God has been in control of His plan from before the beginning of time, God has always been and by the way they are not claims they are spiritual facts for those who want what God is offering. For those who do not want what God is offering they are confusing and out of reach, why should God make sense out of what He has planned to those who will reject Him.
GC
Nearly all denominations agree on what constituts a "proper" bible, yes? Please explain the big table with all those red and green squares.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
Now if god agrees and has inspied all those denominatons who do not agree with ech other....well, do you have an explanation for mutually exclusive views on teh biblical canon, all being correct and all being inspired by god? 
Moses, did......wait....before he does anything he has to exist. Please demonstrate he existed.  The rest of your rambling is ignored, i am not wasting my time with bullshit. You want to come here and make wild claims about lots of BS, fine, demonstrate any of your nonsense is only remotely true. This is not a church where you are preacching to poor suckers down below and they swallow all your BS, line, hook, and sinker.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 9:11 am
(This post was last modified: February 19, 2019 at 9:16 am by possibletarian.)
(February 19, 2019 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: Moses penned the first five books, that was more than a thousand years before the birth of Christ Jesus. Duration? God has been in control of His plan from before the beginning of time, God has always been and by the way they are not claims they are spiritual facts for those who want what God is offering. For those who do not want what God is offering they are confusing and out of reach, why should God make sense out of what He has planned to those who will reject Him.
GC
*bold mine*
Let's put aside the gobshyte that went before and concentrate on the bold. This is exactly the excuse religionists, creeds, crackpots, conspiracy theorist of all ilks and kinds, they all more or less claim the same. It's an open license for the gullible to allow themselves to be deceived fully.
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 9:21 am
(This post was last modified: February 19, 2019 at 9:30 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It's a silly statement coming from a christian, anyway, who asserts that god is never out of reach even if someone doesn't currently want what he's selling. Just as silly is the idea that christian theology is confusing. I understand it fine. It's not confusing, just idiotic.
That's why I'm not interested in what god is selling, even if god's existed and were actually selling that, which they aren't, lol. It's just people saying idiotic shit. Honestly, it would be even more hilarious if gods really did exist and really were trolling the faithful by telling them to believe in shit that never happened. "God inspired".....? Yeah, sure..and the sun might inspire me to write a poem, too...that doesn't mean that the sun is vouching for the accuracy of that poems contents. People who say things like that should use their god-given brains more often.
It's a weasel word that allows the faithful not to be seen or heard saying the silly thing..the thing that they also know to be silly..even though they functionally or literally believe it. That a gods cosmic hand reached down with a divine pen and authored a magic book.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 19, 2019 at 2:14 pm
(February 13, 2019 at 3:46 am)Godscreated Wrote: (February 9, 2019 at 2:24 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Hey, if you had a strong faith and understanding of Scripture, as you say, then you would not be afraid to watch it, but you know very well that a good argument and reading a book on evolution would deflate your religion in an instant, so you avoid it like a plague.
You assume much more than you actually know or understand, i spent several hours tonight watching science shows on the origin of the universe and guess what not one scientist on the show could admit that the big bang actually happened. I engage in quite a bit of science and listen to the arguments so that I can keep up at least some with what is continually being revamped with plenty of fudge factors as to how the universe was formed and works and also about evolution. You see I'm not afraid of the lies people bring themselves to believe so they can deny God, I know He exists because I know Him through a personal relationship and thus only need to see what the opposition is up to and help those who are being deceived by the lies of today's science. There are many wonderful things happening through good science and that is where today's scientist need to keep things, "in the real world of truth."
GC We know the big bang happened because the traces are all around us to this day.
The evidence is overwhelming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtrYF_hxxUM
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 20, 2019 at 2:32 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2019 at 3:19 am by Godscreated.)
(February 19, 2019 at 2:14 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: (February 13, 2019 at 3:46 am)Godscreated Wrote: You assume much more than you actually know or understand, i spent several hours tonight watching science shows on the origin of the universe and guess what not one scientist on the show could admit that the big bang actually happened. I engage in quite a bit of science and listen to the arguments so that I can keep up at least some with what is continually being revamped with plenty of fudge factors as to how the universe was formed and works and also about evolution. You see I'm not afraid of the lies people bring themselves to believe so they can deny God, I know He exists because I know Him through a personal relationship and thus only need to see what the opposition is up to and help those who are being deceived by the lies of today's science. There are many wonderful things happening through good science and that is where today's scientist need to keep things, "in the real world of truth."
GC We know the big bang happened because the traces are all around us to this day.
The evidence is overwhelming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtrYF_hxxUM
There is no proof of a big bang and no one was around when the universe was created to say there was a big bang. I was watching a science show tonight about dark matter and dark energy and dark energy was defined as scientists ignorance, that's the best definition I've heard yet and that was by secular scientist. As I watched it became quite obvious that dark matter and dark energy are plug in scenario to make what scientist want to believe fit the belief, there is no real science to dark matter or energy. They even admitted that the universe could have formed and developed without either, just so they can have a back-up plan. Maybe you need to watch the Science channel and learn some things, you tube is not really such a place for such complicated things.
GC
(February 19, 2019 at 9:11 am)possibletarian Wrote: (February 19, 2019 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: Moses penned the first five books, that was more than a thousand years before the birth of Christ Jesus. Duration? God has been in control of His plan from before the beginning of time, God has always been and by the way they are not claims they are spiritual facts for those who want what God is offering. For those who do not want what God is offering they are confusing and out of reach, why should God make sense out of what He has planned to those who will reject Him.
GC
*bold mine*
Let's put aside the gobshyte that went before and concentrate on the bold. This is exactly the excuse religionists, creeds, crackpots, conspiracy theorist of all ilks and kinds, they all more or less claim the same. It's an open license for the gullible to allow themselves to be deceived fully.
It's apparent you are not concentrating on the bold part of my statement. It is simple truth either you desire what God has for you or you do not, there are no other options. I have never desired to be deceived nor will I ever, I have always been a facts hunter and one fact I have just discovered, you do not care to learn nor find truth, must be a very confusing life you live.
GC
(February 19, 2019 at 9:21 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: It's a silly statement coming from a christian, anyway, who asserts that god is never out of reach even if someone doesn't currently want what he's selling. Just as silly is the idea that christian theology is confusing. I understand it fine. It's not confusing, just idiotic.
That's why I'm not interested in what god is selling, even if god's existed and were actually selling that, which they aren't, lol. It's just people saying idiotic shit. Honestly, it would be even more hilarious if gods really did exist and really were trolling the faithful by telling them to believe in shit that never happened. "God inspired".....? Yeah, sure..and the sun might inspire me to write a poem, too...that doesn't mean that the sun is vouching for the accuracy of that poems contents. People who say things like that should use their god-given brains more often.
It's a weasel word that allows the faithful not to be seen or heard saying the silly thing..the thing that they also know to be silly..even though they functionally or literally believe it. That a gods cosmic hand reached down with a divine pen and authored a magic book.
Your statement is contradictory from beginning to end and full of crap. God is always available to those who desire to know Him. God has said that he will not always listen to the insincere and He will not always strive with men. There's your truth from scripture.
GC
(February 19, 2019 at 7:33 am)Deesse23 Wrote: (February 19, 2019 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: Wrong nearly all denominations see the Bible as God inspired and complete as it is. Yes there are many books contained within the greater book it is an example of what I said before, God inspired.
God was overseeing the whole process, not only were the writers God inspired so were those who God used to put together the greater book. God wouldn't have done one without the other, this is only logical even on a human level. The people who are trying to incorporate different books into the Bible are working unaided by God and for their own selfish reasons, they are not interested in what God wants.
Moses penned the first five books, that was more than a thousand years before the birth of Christ Jesus. Duration? God has been in control of His plan from before the beginning of time, God has always been and by the way they are not claims they are spiritual facts for those who want what God is offering. For those who do not want what God is offering they are confusing and out of reach, why should God make sense out of what He has planned to those who will reject Him.
GC
Nearly all denominations agree on what constituts a "proper" bible, yes? Please explain the big table with all those red and green squares.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
I'm glad you agree with me on the Bible, but for the table I have no idea what you are speaking of.
Deesse23 Wrote:Now if god agrees and has inspied all those denominatons who do not agree with ech other....well, do you have an explanation for mutually exclusive views on teh biblical canon, all being correct and all being inspired by god?
Who said God inspire all the denominations, I know you are thinking of some that most denominations consider cults and they are and therefore would never be inspired by God. Those who believe the Bible should be an open cannon want to believe things about god that are not true. No of those books some want to see as part of the Bible stand up to the scrutiny of the Bible we have now. They are contradictory to the Bible and thus can not be valid, God would never inspire contradictory books.
Deesse23 Wrote:Moses, did......wait....before he does anything he has to exist. Please demonstrate he existed. The rest of your rambling is ignored, i am not wasting my time with bullshit. You want to come here and make wild claims about lots of BS, fine, demonstrate any of your nonsense is only remotely true. This is not a church where you are preacching to poor suckers down below and they swallow all your BS, line, hook, and sinker.
I do not have to prove Moses lived, the Bible tells us he did. Just as past writings in other culture say certain people lived and we have no proof outside of those particular writings.
You can ignore anything I write, just as I do not take what you say seriously because I know it's not truth. What do you mean I come here, I've been here ten times longer than you have, I've watched many come and go as a matter of fact I'm one of the oldest members still posting, I've argued more positions than you will ever purpose. Demonstration,archaeologist that search in the Middle East use the Bible to help guide them in there searches. Let mean inform you that my previous pastor was a nuclear engineer and his son has followed in that profession, his son was asked to come to the Fucushima nuclear disaster and conferences in Washington D.C. so you see we are not suckers nor shallow we have many bright minds in our midst and most of them are teachers of one thing or another.
GC
(February 19, 2019 at 5:56 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: (February 19, 2019 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: Moses penned the first five books, that was more than a thousand years before the birth of Christ Jesus.
GC, you again demonstrate that you don't know shit about the Bible. I guess I could say you embarrass yourself, but you are already a joke, so... Imagine Moses writing this Deuteronomy 34:5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
Or, according to GC, Moses also wrote this: Numbers 12:3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
Really, GC, read the Bible before pretending to be an expert on it.
God could have foretold Moses death to him and what would happen, but more than likely Joshua wrote those words. As for Moses writing about who he was I see no problem with that. You do the same here with Christians but there is a difference Moses tells the truth. By the way Moses knew he wasn't going to the Promise Land and that he would die right where he stood looking upon the place he was forbidden to enter. Your pitiful attempt at using two verses out of five books shows how little intelligence you actually have, you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm finished with your nonsense, post replies if you wish they will go unanswered. fair warning.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: On the subject of Hell and Salvation
February 20, 2019 at 4:58 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2019 at 5:00 am by Deesse23.)
Quote:I'm glad you agree with me on the Bible, but for the table I have no idea what you are speaking of.
You didnt know that different christian denominations have different ideas of which books the "true bible" should contain?
I pulled this out in response to your claim that the "bible" was inspired (or the writers were) by god. If these people cant agree on what the bible is supposed to be, and you claim god inspired all of them, your argument is definitely flawed.
Quote:Who said God inspire all the denominations?
You did, in your last post: 
Quote:God was overseeing the whole process, not only were the writers God inspired so were those who God used to put together the greater book.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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