(April 4, 2019 at 12:27 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(April 4, 2019 at 8:28 am)Belaqua Wrote: To me the whole subject -- theology, the arts that are related to it, and the insight it gives into people -- is a source of great beauty. It didn't occur to me that I had to choose a side and fight until I started looking at sites like this one. But one thing I have learned -- choosing a side tends to close the mind. It would make me sad to shut out the source of so much greatness.

I tend to agree with you. It was novelists and writers who I credit my theism too, more so than some bland theologian, or some weird or over wrought theology. And I think it was Dosteovky who said "beauty will save the world", and I agree, if anything will save the world, it's beauty.

In my view a great novel, a great work of art, is capable of revealing the nature of reality and life, far better than any work of science. I used to think that people who shared such sentiments were primarily on my side of the fence, so it's surprising and nice to encounter an unbeliever with similar affinities. I'm curious as to see why the lack of belief, what keeps you from believing. Why someone like myself believes, and you don't, when we're not all that different it seems.

To what can I credit my atheism?

Just existing and finding all the arguments for god laughably childish.

(April 4, 2019 at 1:08 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I always wonder what about -any- theology is supposed to be sophisticated in the first place, lol.  It's funny how every group seems to imagine that theirs is in that set, and the others guys stuff is shit.

If I rigged up a turd with tinsel and christmas lights, would it be "more sophisticated" than the next turd?

And how many Christians came to be Christians via sophisticated theology, how many of the have even herd the term?

'Good morning madam, may I ask your views on sophisticated theology...'

'Sorry I don't know much about science and I have to rush off anyway, I'm late for mass.'

(April 4, 2019 at 1:06 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(April 4, 2019 at 12:16 pm)Acrobat Wrote: You ever argue with a fundie about the things that they don’t believe in? That’s sort of like what arguing with your typical atheist on the internet is like. Such atheists are not merely arguing against fundie arguments, but their atheism itself is formed in relationship to such arguments.  Even worse, they don’t even seem to understand evangelicals all that much either. I doubt a single fundie evangelical would ever suggest, as I have for someone like Belaqua, that he seems to understand a great deal about things I believe. But rather that atheists primary rely on caricatures of theistic views.

My highlite. Acrobat, this look very much like  Alvin Plantinga's argument that   atheist lack an understanding of sophisticated theology.

Am I getting warm?

It's not even sophisticated theology, it's just basic orthodox theology, shared by mainline protestants, catholics, eastern orthodox, or that of much of historical theism. Much of it is even shared among fundie evangelicals as well. Fundie evangelicals don't necessary disagree with such views, they just often fail at articulating or defending them as properly.  

Atheists can lack such knowledge, I mean to each is own. The end result is that atheists arguments against theism, can't be taken anymore seriously than fundie arguments against atheism. The line "who created god" might get applause from fellow atheists, just like "have you ever seen a monkey give birth to a human" might get applause from fellow creationist, but are just cringe, silly, and dismissible for everyone outside their respective choirs. 

The other issue, the sort of atheism that develops as a counter argument to fundamentalism, never seems to mature or grow or develop. I've been on atheists forums for over decade, and there never seems to be any growth in thought, not just in regards to theism, but in regards to ones atheism itself. It's just breaks down to a repetition of thoughtless slogans.

Being among atheists for so long, rather than eroding my confidence in theism, has solidified it. But even I have to admit that confidence has been won on the cheap, because of all the poor arguments of the opposition.

(April 4, 2019 at 1:45 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(April 4, 2019 at 1:06 pm)Succubus Wrote: My highlite. Acrobat, this look very much like  Alvin Plantinga's argument that   atheist lack an understanding of sophisticated theology.

Am I getting warm?

It's not even sophisticated theology, it's just basic orthodox theology, shared by mainline protestants, catholics, eastern orthodox, or that of much of historical theism. Much of it is even shared among fundie evangelicals as well. Fundie evangelicals don't necessary disagree with such views, they just often fail at articulating or defending them as properly.  

Atheists can lack such knowledge, I mean to each is own. The end result is that atheists arguments against theism, can't be taken anymore seriously than fundie arguments against atheism. The line "who created god" might get applause from fellow atheists, just like "have you ever seen a monkey give birth to a human" might get applause from fellow creationist, but are just cringe, silly, and dismissible for everyone outside their respective choirs. 

The other issue, the sort of atheism that develops as a counter argument to fundamentalism, never seems to mature or grow or develop. I've been on atheists forums for over decade, and there never seems to be any growth in thought, not just in regards to theism, but in regards to ones atheism itself. It's just breaks down to a repetition of thoughtless slogans.

Being among atheists for so long, rather than eroding my confidence in theism, has solidified it. But even I have to admit that confidence has been won on the cheap, because of all the poor arguments of the opposition.

Restating the same argument (for that is exactly what you just did) will not make the argument any more valid. As for theology, sophisticated or otherwise, I will leave you with this:

Quote:The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing, and it admits of no conclusion.

Thomas Paine.

(April 4, 2019 at 1:14 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Just existing and finding all the arguments for god laughably childish.

The diagnosis here. Is that you want arguments that are laughably childish, because it makes you feel more like an adult, a fully developed human being, if you can imagine everyone else as a child. There's something appealingly egotistical, about atheism, that one can be an atheist with very little effort or thought, and yet feel above the rest of religious humanity as a result.

Now, I find most atheists arguments silly and childish as well, but I don't like that though. I like a challenge, a strong counter position, that causes me to reflect and rethink my own views, rather than the cheap confidence that comes as a result of poor arguments.

(April 4, 2019 at 1:54 pm)Acrobat Wrote: ... There's something appealingly egotistical, about atheism,...

Says the guy who prays to god.
You know, has one on one direct communication with the entity that created the universe. Tell me again about your humility.

If only someone would present a challenging argument, that in turn required a challenging response.

Oh, hey Acro...there you are, how many posts you got on the boards by now? Are we going to see something like that this side of judgement day? Or are you going to continue passive aggressively bitching?

(April 4, 2019 at 1:54 pm)Succubus Wrote:

Quote:The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing, and it admits of no conclusion.

Thomas Paine.

And that's really cute. The best of atheism can be summed up as cute, ironic, and cynical ditties from an ivory tour, that has no real connection to life, and is out of touch.

It's all just huff and puff, smoke and mirrors. That no one, not even actual atheist take anymore seriously then a game at an amusement park. It's all just phony and inauthentic.

While the best of religion, exist right there in the most deeply felt aspects of life, a slave filled with elation over a hymn, or a mother weeping in prayer, in gratitude, in forgiveness, in love, redemption, mercy, in suffering, and transcendence. While the atheist is left staring outside himself, infatuated with some view of an objective world, unoccupied with the life of man.

Is that an example of something you think that we haven't heard countless times before, or that we might find challenging?

(April 4, 2019 at 2:10 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(April 4, 2019 at 1:54 pm)Succubus Wrote: Thomas Paine.

And that's really cute. The best of atheism can be summed  up as cute, ironic, and cynical ditties from an ivory tour, that has no real connection to life, and is out of touch.

It's all just huff and puff, smoke and mirrors. That no one, not even actual atheist take anymore seriously then a game at an amusement park. It's all just phony and inauthentic.

While the best of religion, exist right there in the most deeply felt aspects of life, a slave filled with elation over a hymn, or a mother weeping in prayer, in gratitude, in forgiveness, in love, redemption, mercy, in suffering, and transcendence. While the atheist is left staring outside himself, infatuated with some view of an objective world, unoccupied with the life of man.

The bloke immediately up thread ask you for a reason to believe. Now give it your best shot. No waffle, no gibberish and no lengthy screeds concerning theology.
Now, does god exist? Show your working.