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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 2:36 pm
(April 4, 2019 at 2:21 pm)Succubus Wrote: The bloke immediately up thread ask you for a reason to believe. Now give it your best shot. No waffle, no gibberish and no lengthy screeds concerning theology.
Now, does god exist? Show your working.
Sorry man, I don't know the person above me, or care for some stranger on the internet, as to whether they believe in God. As far as I see it the typical internet atheists isn't looking for a reason to believe, he's looking for reasons to not believe, to affirm his unbelief, and not seeking to disavow it.
I'm the one that believes in God, i'm the one that possess reasons for why I believe. I can provide reasons for why I believe as confidently as I do, i can't provide you reasons for why you ought to believe. That's a question for yourself, not me.
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 2:39 pm
Dodge noted.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 2:43 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 2:49 pm by Acrobat.)
(April 4, 2019 at 12:25 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: The problem is that beauty does not equal truth.
Who says? Is truth some sort of cold hard facts of the world, absent of any aesthetic quality? It seems to be that in order for man to desire truth, Truth has to be something desirable. It has to be a thing of beauty, for us to desire to know it.
As i recall you believe in objective morality, in moral truths. Yet moral truths are fundamentally aesthetic in nature. They are which move us to act, absent of their beauty we wouldn't be able see them at all.
Do you think beauty you see in things like kindness, in goodness, is just purely in your head, and not in the reality outside it? That beauty of kindness is something you give to a thing, and not a possession of that which is being observed?
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 2:48 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 2:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 4, 2019 at 2:43 pm)Acrobat Wrote: (April 4, 2019 at 12:25 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: The problem is that beauty does not equal truth.
Who says?
Anyone who understands what photoshop is?
We seem to value truth for it's utility more than it's beauty, hence the phrases "cold hard truth" or "ugly truth" or "inconvenient fact", conversely, "pleasant fiction" "seductive lie" or "convenient fantasy".
Either way, you seem to be missing any gods in this explanation. You're not talking to people who don't believe that this or that thing is beautiful. You're talking to people who don't believe in gods.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:11 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:12 pm by Alan V.)
(April 4, 2019 at 2:43 pm)Acrobat Wrote: (April 4, 2019 at 12:25 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: The problem is that beauty does not equal truth.
Who says? Is truth some sort of cold hard facts of the world, absent of any aesthetic quality? It seems to be that in order for man to desire truth, Truth has to be something desirable. It has to be a thing of beauty, for us to desire to know it.
As i recall you believe in objective morality, in moral truths. Yet moral truths are fundamentally aesthetic in nature. They are which move us to act, absent of their beauty we wouldn't be able see them at all.
Do you think beauty you see in things like kindness, in goodness, is just purely in your head, and not in the reality outside it? That beauty of kindness is something you give to a thing, and not a possession of that which is being observed?
Truth can be beautiful or not, as Gae Bolga pointed out. Thus truth does not equal beauty.
I do think there are moral truths, but they are moral because they are truths, not because they are necessarily beautiful.
I do not trust my emotional reactions since I know they have been heavily conditioned. Advertisers spend millions to promote associative thinking. But appearances can be deceptive.
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:22 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:22 pm by Acrobat.)
(April 4, 2019 at 3:11 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: (April 4, 2019 at 2:43 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Who says? Is truth some sort of cold hard facts of the world, absent of any aesthetic quality? It seems to be that in order for man to desire truth, Truth has to be something desirable. It has to be a thing of beauty, for us to desire to know it.
As i recall you believe in objective morality, in moral truths. Yet moral truths are fundamentally aesthetic in nature. They are which move us to act, absent of their beauty we wouldn't be able see them at all.
Do you think beauty you see in things like kindness, in goodness, is just purely in your head, and not in the reality outside it? That beauty of kindness is something you give to a thing, and not a possession of that which is being observed?
Truth can be beautiful or not, as Gae Bolga pointed out. Thus truth does not equal beauty.
I do think there are moral truths, but they are moral because they are truths, not because they are necessarily beautiful.
I do not trust my emotional reactions since I know they have been heavily conditioned. Advertisers spend millions to promote associative thinking. But appearances can be deceptive.
I don’t know about your specific emotional reaction, but some truths are aesthetic in nature, moral truths being one such example.
Even the common claim of atheists here, that they desire truth, can only be true, if truth is something ultimately desirable. There has to be something that draws us to it, to provoke us to seek it. Or else you’re just seeking the feeling of truthiness than truth itself
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:25 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-and unless that thing is god..it has absolutely no bearing on atheism or any reason to believe in a god.
My wife is beautiful if a god exists, and my wife is beautiful if a god doesn't exist. The existence of a god is irrelevant to the truth of that statement either way. Therefore it doesn't.
Some truths are beautiful, some truths are not. Those beautiful truths would be beautiful in a world which contained a god, and one which didn't. Those truths that are ugly would be ugly in a world that contained a god and one that didn't. Therefore it doesn't.
You're not talking to people who don't believe that human beings have this or that compulsion to beauty or to truth, you're talking to people who don't believe in gods.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:29 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:30 pm by Alan V.)
(April 4, 2019 at 3:22 pm)Acrobat Wrote: I don’t know about your specific emotional reaction, but some truths are aesthetic in nature, moral truths being one such example.
Even the common claim of atheists here, that they desire truth, can only be true, if truth is something ultimately desirable. There has to be something that draws us to it, to provoke us to seek it. Or else you’re just seeking the feeling of truthiness than truth itself
It's not just my emotional reactions which are suspect, but those of all humans due to our habitual tendency to be conditioned by our environments, families, and societies. Such conditioning routinely warps our perceptions of the facts. This has been shown to be true again and again in psychological studies.
Facts have utility. They help us operate effectively in the world they describe. That is what makes difficult, ugly, and even painful truths desirable. Like being diagnosed with cancer, it's better to know some things in a timely manner.
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:30 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:32 pm by Acrobat.)
(April 4, 2019 at 2:48 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Either way, you seem to be missing any gods in this explanation. You're not talking to people who don't believe that this or that thing is beautiful. You're talking to people who don't believe in gods.
I don’t know what you mean by “any gods”. If you mean some sort of appeal to Superman in the sky that grants wishes, than you’re right I don’t mention such a thing, because I don’t believe in such a thing. I believe in God as a condition of possibility, so I don’t ever have to use the word God, when stating any of my beliefs. I prefer you stick to what I do say, rather than trying to figure out how it connects to your stupid conceptions of God/s, because it doesn’t.
I’m not sure why you constantly have an issue with the topic in discussion and continually try to divert it to something else? Is the present topic too uncomfortable for you?
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:39 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I meant exactly what I said. There are no gods in what I assume you're presenting as some reason to believe in gods.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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