(June 19, 2019 at 3:11 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

Sorry. I'm not understanding you there.

Are you saying the Nazi's were innitially 'Socalist' and slowly turned fascist?

Or are you saying people's perception of them changed such that at one time they were deemed socialist and then people changed their minds and thought they were fascists?

You do kind of understand that both Communists and Fascists can have elements of 'Socialism' in their ideologies?

Just like you can have 'Social democrats' and 'Democratic socialists'.

Cheers.

I'm saying read the link provided.

The people voted in national socialism for the german people. which in practice lasted about 10 years and could not sustain itself. once it turned on the jews by stealing their money and goods and put them into gettos and death camps that was the end of true socialism, and began down the road to full on dictatorship. once the jews money ran out the turn on their neighbors because at the core of the government was a socialist construct that is not a self sustaining model of government. you will always need more revenue than can be gleaned from the rich. IE you will have to find other sources to pay for all of the government hand outs or simply change the structure into what the nazis became.

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(June 19, 2019 at 3:13 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I must have missed it, care to link the citation again?  The NYT has a searchable form, that should help you try to ferret it out.

post 14

[/hide]

The full body of post 14 is above.  There is no link to any citation from the mueller report. You are tripling down on an easily researched lie. As easy as looking at post 14.

Drich...wtf?

At work.

(June 19, 2019 at 3:19 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 19, 2019 at 3:11 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: Sorry. I'm not understanding you there.

Are you saying the Nazi's were innitially 'Socalist' and slowly turned fascist?

Or are you saying people's perception of them changed such that at one time they were deemed socialist and then people changed their minds and thought they were fascists?

You do kind of understand that both Communists and Fascists can have elements of 'Socialism' in their ideologies?

Just like you can have 'Social democrats' and 'Democratic socialists'.

Cheers.

I'm saying read the link provided.

The people voted in national socialism for the german people. which in practice lasted about 10 years and could not sustain itself. once it turned on the jews by stealing their money and goods and put them into gettos and death camps that was the end of true socialism, and began down the road to full on dictatorship. once the jews money ran out the turn on their neighbors because at the core of the government was a socialist construct that is not a self sustaining model of government. you will always need more revenue than can be gleaned from the rich. IE you will have to find other sources to pay for all of the government hand outs or simply change the structure into what the nazis became.

Uhm......so if the Nazi's were socialists...... and the Stalinists were socialists.......


What was the difference between them then?

Cheers.

(June 19, 2019 at 2:30 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: While there are certainly elements of socialism in communism....... they have some fundamental differences.

And when you get down to it, by the time Stalin gained full power, there was very little remaining of Communism* or Socialism in the USSR. Totalitarian states lean very far to the right, and for one very simple reason, totalitarian states are all about retaining power in the hands of a small elite and hard or far right political systems have that same sole goal.

*In fact I'd contend that Communism died in the USSR when the Bolsheviks did in the Soviets during the civil war.

(June 19, 2019 at 3:28 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

(June 19, 2019 at 3:19 pm)Drich Wrote: I'm saying read the link provided.

The people voted in national socialism for the german people. which in practice lasted about 10 years and could not sustain itself. once it turned on the jews by stealing their money and goods and put them into gettos and death camps that was the end of true socialism, and began down the road to full on dictatorship. once the jews money ran out the turn on their neighbors because at the core of the government was a socialist construct that is not a self sustaining model of government. you will always need more revenue than can be gleaned from the rich. IE you will have to find other sources to pay for all of the government hand outs or simply change the structure into what the nazis became.

Uhm......so if the Nazi's were socialists...... and the Stalinists were socialists.......


What was the difference between them then?

Cheers.

Glob..

Communism sport stalinist where the model of Com-mun-ism..  read what I said again dummy. There is a difference between socialism and communism. the nazi where socialists and the stalinist where vangaurd to the communists!!!
 

Quote:subordination of the interests of foreign communist partiesto those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, deemed by Stalinism to be the leading vanguard party of communist revolution at the time.[3]

[/url]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism
when communism was first introduced:
https://www.history.com/topics/russia/co...m-timeline

one shot!

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(June 19, 2019 at 3:24 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

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(June 19, 2019 at 10:36 am)Drich Wrote: So.... you don't understand the difference between communism and socialism which is why you use them interchangeably..

Well I could take the time or you can just google it now that you know there is a difference.

That said know I am not a group think dim such as yourself, meaning I can use hitler stalin or mussolini name without concern or cross contamination of anything I say, simply because i and people like me ie people who elected this president over your candidate are not train like single minded dogs to equate key words with negative emotions without thought or reason. meaning just because one of you calls someone a racist the word does not direct correlation or mean anything used in your baseless accusation by it self. meaning i need evidence and verfiable fact, not just someone like you swearing/name calling he is.

You guys use that same shite tactic with me over the last 10 years.. do you want to know what it means when one of you starts to name call? you are out of intelectual ammo your rhyme and reason has left you and you have nothing left in the tank except emotional distaste/hatred and you feel like you need to say something.. so you start in with the name calling. In short name calling is what a 'educated group think person' resorts to when they are force to think or consider things there is no group think response to! 

 I can think and reason for my self which means I will determine whether one is what you accuse him of being. I nor people like me will ever take your key word condemnations seriously. they are verbal pacifiers for people like you to rest assured you are all making the right group think choice. That BS does not mean anything to people who use reason and evidence to make their choices.

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Boom Bitch Get out the way! Get out the Way!









What is the dossier:






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvTkvdAl2Zw

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[/hide]

The full body of post 14 is above.  There is no link to any citation from the mueller report.  You are tripling down on an easily researched lie.  As easy as looking at post 14.

Drich...wtf?
again sport you where given as much information that your security clearance allows you to have as a common US citizen to the redacted portions of the mueller report. That limits your exposure to that of our government representatives in congress, the senate and the DOJ. to which I posted video links to said individuals explaining what they are allowed to share from the redact portions of the report. Which includes but is not limited to everything I said concerning trump's exoneration to russian collusion in providing information used in the Steele dossier. it's in the 4 videos I posted from 4 completely different sources. I even have cnn explaining what the dossier is and how it was illegally used but the DNC.

(June 19, 2019 at 4:39 pm)Drich Wrote:

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(June 19, 2019 at 3:24 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

---

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The full body of post 14 is above.  There is no link to any citation from the mueller report.  You are tripling down on an easily researched lie.  As easy as looking at post 14.

Drich...wtf?

again sport you where given as much information that your security clearance allows you to have as a common US citizen to the redacted portions of the mueller report. That limits your exposure to that of our government representatives in congress, the senate and the DOJ. to which I posted video links to said individuals explaining what they are allowed to share from the redact portions of the report. Which includes but is not limited to everything I said concerning trump's exoneration to russian collusion in providing information used in the Steele dossier. it's in the 4 videos I posted from 4 completely different sources. I even have cnn explaining what the dossier is and how it was illegally used but the DNC.

IOW you don't have a citation, and you knew there was no citation in post number 14, but claimed that you had one, and that it was in post 14.

W....t....f....?

(June 19, 2019 at 4:35 pm)Nomad Wrote:

(June 19, 2019 at 2:30 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: While there are certainly elements of socialism in communism....... they have some fundamental differences.

And when you get down to it, by the time Stalin gained full power, there was very little remaining of Communism* or Socialism in the USSR.  Totalitarian states lean very far to the right, and for one very simple reason, totalitarian states are all about retaining power in the hands of a small elite and hard or far right political systems have that same sole goal.

*In fact I'd contend that Communism died in the USSR when the Bolsheviks did in the Soviets during the civil war.

according to this stalin brough the purest form of communism into the communist party. before him it was a mixed bag. he put the cuntry on a tight lease and forged a true communist state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_...viet_Union

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(June 19, 2019 at 4:47 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(June 19, 2019 at 4:39 pm)Drich Wrote:

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again sport you where given as much information that your security clearance allows you to have as a common US citizen to the redacted portions of the mueller report. That limits your exposure to that of our government representatives in congress, the senate and the DOJ. to which I posted video links to said individuals explaining what they are allowed to share from the redact portions of the report. Which includes but is not limited to everything I said concerning trump's exoneration to russian collusion in providing information used in the Steele dossier. it's in the 4 videos I posted from 4 completely different sources. I even have cnn explaining what the dossier is and how it was illegally used but the DNC.

IOW you don't have a citation, and you knew there was no citation in post number 14, but claimed that you had one, and that it was in post 14.

W....t....f....?

I don't understand your confusion

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please explain the problem you have with the direct quotes provided by the videos

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do you not understand what the word citation means?
a citation is a requestion for source material.. source material including quotes scholarly works or reference to a paper or book.

I provided not only a direct quote but a video of the senator describing what he is allowed to share from the muller report from the redacted sections which contain said dossier.
This full fills your request as it is a direct link t primary source material for someone with out clearance to see the redacted portions.

The mueller report, as you have been shown with an actual citation in this thread, does not show what you said it does.  Further, it explicitly states that your characterization is wholly false.

My confusion is as to what fantasy world you're living in, but given that your "citations" are fox infotainment..that;s not quite right, huh? More to how I could possibly discuss the merits of our respective opinions if you will not agree to contain yourself to the reality that facts obtain.

I already told you I wasn't interested in Qanon shit. I don't care whether it's you or lindsey graham or devin nunes mainlining that shit, lol. You said the mueller report showed something, you said you had citations. Neither of these two things were true.

(June 19, 2019 at 4:39 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 19, 2019 at 3:28 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.


Uhm......so if the Nazi's were socialists...... and the Stalinists were socialists.......


What was the difference between them then?

Cheers.

Glob..

Communism sport stalinist where the model of Com-mun-ism..  read what I said again dummy. There is a difference between socialism and communism. the nazi where socialists and the stalinist where vangaurd to the communists!!!
 

Quote:subordination of the interests of foreign communist partiesto those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, deemed by Stalinism to be the leading vanguard party of communist revolution at the time.[3]

[/url]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism
when communism was first introduced:
https://www.history.com/topics/russia/co...m-timeline

one shot!

---

So... the Stalinists' were only 'Communists'? They weren't 'Socalists'?

And the Nazi's started off 'socialist' and  then they became... Fascists?

So... what was/is the major differance between a 'Communist' and a 'Socialist' then?

How might one be a 'Democratic socialist' ?

Cheers.

Not at work.

(June 18, 2019 at 3:01 pm)Drich Wrote: are intentionally being obstinate or do you not know there is a major divide between communism and socialism? Ask stallin and hitler if they are compatible.. if so why did million fight eacth other to install their own personal ism in each others home land?

And here's what I have to say about the whole "Hitler was a socialist" meme:





And as someone who's currently between volumes in his re-reading of Ian Kershaw's mammoth biography of Hitler, I can say this is more or less accurate.

An actual quote from an early speech from Hitler:

Adolf Hitler Wrote:Whoever is prepared to make the national cause his own to such an extent that he knows no higher ideal than the welfare of the nation; whoever has understood our great national anthem, “Deutschland ueber Alles,” to mean that nothing in the wide world surpasses in his eyes this Germany, people and land — that man is a Socialist.

A few years later, he said this when asked about Socialism: "Socialism! What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism."

In the pre-1933 days, there was a sizable contingent of the National Socialist Worker's Party called the Strasserites that actually took the "Socialist" part of their name seriously. Around 1930, he started to purge them from the party. When he came to power, especially on the Night of the Long Knives, he purged them from life.

And here's what Richard J. Evans, one of the top historians of the era has to say about it:

Richard J. Evans Wrote:Perhaps to emphasize this anti-capitalist focus, and to align itself with similar groups in Austria and Czechoslovakia, the party changed its name in February 1920 to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party…. Despite the change of name, however, it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth from, socialism. True, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be “the socialism of fools.” But from the very beginning, Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism: after all, the “November traitors” who had signed the Armistice and later the Treaty of Versailles were not Communists at all, but the Social Democrats. (Page 172-3 of my edition of The Coming of the Third Reich.)

TL;DR: Unless your definition of "socialism" is "Anything Trump or Mitch McConnell doesn't like," Hitler was not a socialist. And I honestly wouldn't put it past Trump to even fail that definition.

And while we're on Democratic candidates and the crowds their rallies draw... well, here's a recent photo of a Bernie rally in Brooklyn a few months ago:


Huge crowds came out to see Bernie Sanders, and this was around the time of a major winter storm in New York. Still think Trump's far more popular than any Democratic candidate (and, bear in mind, as of my lunchtime, there were 22 others, which might also explain the poor showing at the Biden debate)?