(August 25, 2019 at 4:50 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: You are intentionally concealing your actual beliefs.

I am not. I have been completely honest concerning these things. 

It's puzzling to me why people are unable to accept what I say. Is there some assumption that an atheist must not be interested in religious issues or religious art? A devout person might well accuse me of being unserious -- that I approach the whole thing aesthetically, looking for beauty rather than truth. 

I also find the unprovable mystical contemplations, like Buber's rewriting of Nietzsche's Dionysus vs. Apollo system, to be fascinating and informative about personal relations with the world. Not on a neurological level but on the level of empathy, emotion, valuation. 

There's no way I can know this, but I think that people may be assuming I'm a liar because they can't imagine that a person like me is real. That is, I seem so far from their own relation with religion and art, etc., that they don't see how it could work. Not that I am advanced or unique -- I think there have been many such people, especially before the age when atheists vs religious demanded the drawing of battle lines. 

But I'm a pretty old guy -- just turned 60 -- and I grew up in a tiny town with no culture and (in those days) no talk of religion. But ever since I escaped that I have been immersed in an intellectual and aesthetic world, first in Chicago, then New York, then London, and for many years now Japan. And this has led perhaps to different kinds of experiences and different expectations about what may be put together. 

I'm not expecting any empathy from you on this. That's OK. Some people, for their own reasons, interface with the world in an irate and judgmental way. But I am surprised by the reaction to what I consider to be normal -- something which grew organically just from studying what I like. It doesn't seem odd to me, but others who merely hear about it can't believe that I am speaking honestly.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 25, 2019 at 4:50 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: You are intentionally concealing your actual beliefs.

I am not. I have been completely honest concerning these things. 

Nope. You refuse to identify what you actually believe despite me and others directly asking you. You appear to be a theist or deist of some stripe, but also so ashamed of that belief ~(whatever it might be) that you feel the need to avoid and evade all questions about whatever it is you believe. That is on you and nobody else. Now, I lack any belief in any gods, or spirits, or ant supernatural claptrap. Because there is zero evidence for any such.

Do you think you could bring yourself to state YOUR position on any such meta topics? I contend you are unable to be honest because you refuse to do so thus far.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: It's puzzling to me why people are unable to accept what I say.

You don't say much. You compose walls of non-commital text that say nothing much and call such crap meaningful. It isn't.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: Is there some assumption that an atheist must not be interested in religious issues or religious art?

Nope. Once again that is on you. The cistine chapel is a fabulous work of art, for example. Doesn't equal evidence for a god of any sort however.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: A devout person might well accuse me of being unserious

An atheist can make the same accusation. You are neither hot nor cold, neither fish nor fowl.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: that I approach the whole thing aesthetically, looking for beauty rather than truth. 

I don't believe you. To me you are simply using deception to insert whatever form of crap you happen to believe. You can say that I am wrong. I could be. But that is how you self present and that is the only thing I have to use as a basis for assessing what you say.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: I also find the unprovable mystical contemplations, like Buber's rewriting of Nietzsche's Dionysus vs. Apollo system, to be fascinating and informative about personal relations with the world. Not on a neurological level but on the level of empathy, emotion, valuation. 

Sure, we get that you are immensely impressed by ancient philosophers. Some of us are not so impressed.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: There's no way I can know this, but I think that people may be assuming I'm a liar because they can't imagine that a person like me is real. That is, I seem so far from their own relation with religion and art, etc., that they don't see how it could work. Not that I am advanced or unique -- I think there have been many such people, especially before the age when atheists vs religious demanded the drawing of battle lines. 

We don't have to imagine anything, we can just read what you write.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: But I'm a pretty old guy -- just turned 60 -- and I grew up in a tiny town with no culture and (in those days) no talk of religion. But ever since I escaped that I have been immersed in an intellectual and aesthetic world, first in Chicago, then New York, then London, and for many years now Japan. And this has led perhaps to different kinds of experiences and different expectations about what may be put together. 

Yet somehow, you are unable to explain in detail any of that, preferring to deal in amorphous undefined nonsense. One would think that 60 years would have taught you something, but apparently not.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: I'm not expecting any empathy from you on this. That's OK.

Well that is clearly dishonest because you next say...

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: Some people, for their own reasons, interface with the world in an irate and judgmental way.

...Which is irate judgmentalism from YOU.

(August 25, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: But I am surprised by the reaction to what I consider to be normal -- something which grew organically just from studying what I like. It doesn't seem odd to me, but others who merely hear about it can't believe that I am speaking honestly.

Look to your own self. You have stated that what is normal to YOU should be normal to EVERYONE.


ETA: You could short circuit all of this by actually stating your actual beliefs. But that seems a bridge to far for you.

(August 25, 2019 at 7:30 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: ETA: You could short circuit all of this by actually stating your actual beliefs. But that seems a bridge to far for you.

I have stated my actual beliefs. I am an atheist who finds many ideas in different religions to be beautiful and helpful.

But since you don't want to acknowledge this, and continue to call me a liar, I don't see how we can have a conversation. Whatever I say will be of no interest to you, because you won't believe it. And whatever you say to me will be based in false accusations, and of no interest to me. 

So rather than have us waste each other's time, I'll put you on ignore and not respond. 

I hope that the rest of your life treats you very well.

And what's objectively "true" is that god belief, particularly Christianity, is fucking beautiful....and Belaqua wants everyone to STOP asserting that it's not.
Because we're lying, lying, lying and he won't tolerate it.

But he's no theist or apologist, y'all...Oh, no. 

He just likes pretty things.

(August 25, 2019 at 8:01 pm)Athene Wrote: And what's objectively "true" is that god belief, particularly Christianity, is fucking beautiful....and Belaqua wants everyone to STOP asserting that it's not.
Because we're lying, lying, lying and he won't tolerate it.

But he's no theist or apologist, y'all...Oh, no. 

He just likes pretty things.

I've never said it's objectively true that "god belief" is beautiful. I've never said that Christianity is particularly beautiful -- where I live most people are Pure Land Buddhist. I have never said that people should stop asserting anything. 

I have never said that anyone is lying lying lying. In fact I have no way of knowing if people are honest or not, not having an on-line lie detector.

I have never said anyone should believe in any religion. 

It's true I like pretty things!

(August 25, 2019 at 8:19 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 25, 2019 at 8:01 pm)Athene Wrote: And what's objectively "true" is that god belief, particularly Christianity, is fucking beautiful....and Belaqua wants everyone to STOP asserting that it's not.
Because we're lying, lying, lying and he won't tolerate it.

But he's no theist or apologist, y'all...Oh, no. 

He just likes pretty things.

I've never said it's objectively true that "god belief" is beautiful. I've never said that Christianity is particularly beautiful -- where I live most people are Pure Land Buddhist. I have never said that people should stop asserting anything. 

Lol...liar.

Tbh, your little campaign reads a lot like the bullshit "soft" conversion tactics that I've read about before:

Quote:https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blo...ve-in-god/
As a student of atheist conversions, I don’t think I can overstate the importance of beauty. Beauty is probably the closest thing to the spiritual experienced by a lifelong atheist. At the same time, beauty rarely carries any dogmatic baggage. And even when it does, the dogmatic element speaks for itself with no need for persuasion or even articulation. Beauty is, therefore, both a window into authentic religious life and a non-threatening invitation into it. I remember reading the account of an atheist journalist who walked into an Orthodox church in Moscow and was brought to the brink of belief by the beauty of the liturgy and the smell of incense. Despite my attempts at trying to recreate history through Google searches, I could not locate who this was or from what publication. But it’s burned into my mind as a powerful testament to the power of beauty. Without any words or analytical thoughts, a solidly secular atheist came within an inch of believing in God solely through an encounter with the beautiful. That’s powerful. And it’s a sentiment echoed in atheist conversions all over the place, including the stories of C.S. Lewis, , and countless others.

When using this tactic, the apologist is instructed to avoid negative associations and making overt attempts at conversion, and simply focus on the beauty of religion in order to foster non-believers' sense of "transcendence".
What you're attempting to do here on AF is nothing new, dude.

(August 25, 2019 at 8:39 pm)Athene Wrote:

(August 25, 2019 at 8:19 pm)Belaqua Wrote: I've never said it's objectively true that "god belief" is beautiful. I've never said that Christianity is particularly beautiful -- where I live most people are Pure Land Buddhist. I have never said that people should stop asserting anything. 

Lol...liar.

Tbh, your little campaign reads a lot like the bullshit "soft" conversion tactics that I've read about before:

Quote:https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blo...ve-in-god/
As a student of atheist conversions, I don’t think I can overstate the importance of beauty. Beauty is probably the closest thing to the spiritual experienced by a lifelong atheist. At the same time, beauty rarely carries any dogmatic baggage. And even when it does, the dogmatic element speaks for itself with no need for persuasion or even articulation. Beauty is, therefore, both a window into authentic religious life and a non-threatening invitation into it. I remember reading the account of an atheist journalist who walked into an Orthodox church in Moscow and was brought to the brink of belief by the beauty of the liturgy and the smell of incense. Despite my attempts at trying to recreate history through Google searches, I could not locate who this was or from what publication. But it’s burned into my mind as a powerful testament to the power of beauty. Without any words or analytical thoughts, a solidly secular atheist came within an inch of believing in God solely through an encounter with the beautiful. That’s powerful. And it’s a sentiment echoed in atheist conversions all over the place, including the stories of C.S. Lewis, , and countless others.

When using this tactic, the apologist is instructed to avoid negative associations and making overt attempts at conversion, and simply focus on the beauty of religion in order to foster non-believers' sense of "transcendence".
What you're attempting to do here on AF is nothing new, dude.

If you can point to anything I've said that is incorrect, I'll be happy to discuss it.

What you're doing here is mind-reading, fantasizing that I have goals that I don't really have.

-----------

Edited to add:

You've brought to mind something I hadn't thought about in a LONG TIME.

When I was in about 6th grade, the local preacher's kid wanted to make me a Christian. One of his arguments was that when I sit quietly, if I look inward, I will feel the presence of God. So I tried this, and I didn't feel the presence of God. Then when I reported back to him, he said that no, in fact I really did feel it, but I refused to admit it. He said I must be lying.

But it wasn't an effective tactic for him to use, because I know my mind better than he did.

(August 25, 2019 at 9:08 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 25, 2019 at 8:39 pm)Athene Wrote: Lol...liar.

Tbh, your little campaign reads a lot like the bullshit "soft" conversion tactics that I've read about before:


When using this tactic, the apologist is instructed to avoid negative associations and making overt attempts at conversion, and simply focus on the beauty of religion in order to foster non-believers' sense of "transcendence".
What you're attempting to do here on AF is nothing new, dude.

If you can point to anything I've said that is incorrect, I'll be happy to discuss it.

What you're doing here is mind-reading, fantasizing that I have goals that I don't really have.

-----------

Edited to add:

You've brought to mind something I hadn't thought about in a LONG TIME.

When I was in about 6th grade, the local preacher's kid wanted to make me a Christian. One of his arguments was that when I sit quietly, if I look inward, I will feel the presence of God. So I tried this, and I didn't feel the presence of God. Then when I reported back to him, he said that no, in fact I really did feel it, but I refused to admit it. He said I must be lying.

But it wasn't an effective tactic for him to use, because I know my mind better than he did.

Cool story. 

I guess that means you kind of know how folks here feel being subjected to your tactic of dismissing all that is wretched, immoral, and truly reprehensible about the Bible and commanding atheists to just focus on the aesthetics then, huh? And why you give off such strong apologist douchebag vibes.

(August 25, 2019 at 10:20 pm)Athene Wrote: I guess that means you kind of know how folks here feel being subjected to your tactic of dismissing all that is wretched, immoral, and truly reprehensible about the Bible and being commanded to just focus on the aesthetics then, huh?

But I have never done this tactic, or advocated it. I do not think we should look at only the aesthetics. 

Please please try not to believe your fantasies. Look at what I say, please, and accept that what I say is what I mean.

(August 25, 2019 at 10:41 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 25, 2019 at 10:20 pm)Athene Wrote: I guess that means you kind of know how folks here feel being subjected to your tactic of dismissing all that is wretched, immoral, and truly reprehensible about the Bible and being commanded to just focus on the aesthetics then, huh?

But I have never done this tactic, or advocated it. I do not think we should look at only the aesthetics. 

Please please try not to believe your fantasies. Look at what I say, please, and accept that what I say is what I mean.

Lol...I have no fantasies that involve you, Belaqua. I promise.

I've arrived at my opinion of you based on nothing more than the shit you've posted.