(August 9, 2019 at 12:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Prayers obviously don't work so why do religious still keep doing it? Are they insane because you know the definition of insanity according to Einstein: “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

There was even that multimillion dollar experiment by religious people that ultimately proved how praying doesn't work. Maybe religious people haven't heard about it and that's why they still believe in prayer, but still they had to know when they saw how their own prayers don't get fulfilled.

Still here's Richard Dawkins' description of that prayer experiment:

Quote:the team of researchers soldiered on, spending $2.4 million of Templeton Foundation, money under the leadership of Dr Herbert Benson, a cardiologist at the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston. [...]

Dr Benson and his team monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals, all of whom received coronary bypass surgery. The patients were divided into three groups. Group 1 received prayers and didn’t know it. Group 2 (the control group) received no prayers and didn’t know it. Group 3 received prayers and did know it. The comparison between Groups 1 and 2 tests for the efficacy of intercessory prayer. Group 3 tests for possible psychosomatic effects of knowing that one is being prayed for.

Prayers were delivered by the congregations of three churches, one in Minnesota, one in Massachusetts and one in Missouri, all distant from the three hospitals. The praying individuals, as explained, were given only the first name and initial letter of the surname of each patient for whom they were to pray. It is good experimental practice to standardize as far as possible, and they were all, accordingly, told to include in their prayers the phrase ‘for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications’.

The results, reported in the American Heart Journal of April 2006, were clear-cut. There was no difference between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not. What a surprise. There was a difference between those who knew they had been prayed for and those who did not know one way or the other; but it went in the wrong direction. Those who knew they had been the beneficiaries of prayer suffered significantly more complications than those who did not. Was God doing a bit of smiting, to show his disapproval of the whole barmy enterprise? It seems more probable that those patients who knew they were being prayed for suffered additional stress in consequence: ‘performance anxiety’, as the experimenters put it.

those are not prayers.

Jesus Christ gave the one and only example of a christian prayer. if it does not follow the out line he gave it is known as a petition. God is not obligated to petitions as he has promised to answer prayers. While all prayers are answered petitions are answered based on his time table and predetermined will.

Why do Christians petition God? because somethings are there for the asking.

Maybe Jesus should have been more specific about what 'it' was when he said 'Ask and it shall be given you...'

(August 19, 2019 at 9:07 am)Drich Wrote:

(August 9, 2019 at 12:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Prayers obviously don't work so why do religious still keep doing it? Are they insane because you know the definition of insanity according to Einstein: “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

There was even that multimillion dollar experiment by religious people that ultimately proved how praying doesn't work. Maybe religious people haven't heard about it and that's why they still believe in prayer, but still they had to know when they saw how their own prayers don't get fulfilled.

Still here's Richard Dawkins' description of that prayer experiment:

those are not prayers.

Jesus Christ gave the one and only example of a christian prayer. if it does not follow the out line he gave it is known as a petition. God is not obligated to petitions as he has promised to answer prayers. While all prayers are answered petitions are answered based on his time table and predetermined will.

Why do Christians petition God? because somethings are there for the asking.

Then "prayer" according to you consists of only one prayer and is thus useless for anything. Just mindless repetition of useless formulaic words that have become so automatic that they have lost all meaning.

And of course, you took that from your magic book out of context. When asked in said stupid book, jesus provided an illustrative example, not a proscriptive instruction. You are so dense you can't grok that.

What bothers me the most is when someone who prays, and it's always someone who prays, tries to compare prayer to mediation, in some lame attempt to legitimize prayer. They are not at all the same. One can maybe argue that you reach some sort of mild meditative state when praying... but if that's the case, why not just skip to the good stuff and just meditate instead?

Meditation helps make you more mindful, which is good for anxiety, depression, focus, memory retention, so on and so forth. And while results are going to vary wildly for people, meditation is, in general, a positive thing which is relatively easy to do, though difficult to master.

Praying requires zero skill. Meditation requires at least some level of focus and introspection, which often need to be developed... like skills. Looking inward to recognize when you're thinking and allowing that thought to pass instead of getting attached to it or being carried away by it.

I've heard people say that meditation is like learning to sit next to the river bank and watch the water go by, instead of letting yourself get caught and carried away by the rapids.

Praying is not at all the same. It's an attempt to communicate with a "supreme being" in order to achieve some goal or grant some wish for world peace or whatever. They are simply not the same and I'm sick of religious people comparing the two.

Meditation is attentive listening during a conversation. Praying is like interrupting the person you're talking to at every turn and asking them for money or to help you find your car keys.

Complete nonsense.

(August 20, 2019 at 3:31 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(August 19, 2019 at 9:07 am)Drich Wrote: those are not prayers.

Jesus Christ gave the one and only example of a christian prayer. if it does not follow the out line he gave it is known as a petition. God is not obligated to petitions as he has promised to answer prayers. While all prayers are answered petitions are answered based on his time table and predetermined will.

Why do Christians petition God? because somethings are there for the asking.

Then "prayer" according to you consists of only one prayer and is thus useless for anything. Just mindless repetition of useless formulaic words that have become so automatic that they have lost all meaning.

And of course, you took that from your magic book out of context. When asked in said stupid book, jesus provided an illustrative example, not a proscriptive instruction. You are so dense you can't grok that.

ah, no. 

the prayer offer by Jesus is a out line that has the person praying seeking change and discovery of God and his will for them. The reveal of God or the appearance of God in a life of a believer via the holy Spirit changes everything.

This is what we are to pray for.

(August 26, 2019 at 11:24 am)Drich Wrote:

(August 20, 2019 at 3:31 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Then "prayer" according to you consists of only one prayer and is thus useless for anything. Just mindless repetition of useless formulaic words that have become so automatic that they have lost all meaning.

And of course, you took that from your magic book out of context. When asked in said stupid book, jesus provided an illustrative example, not a proscriptive instruction. You are so dense you can't grok that.

ah, no. 

the prayer offer by Jesus is a out line that has the person praying seeking change and discovery of God and his will for them. The reveal of God or the appearance of God in a life of a believer via the holy Spirit changes everything.

This is what we are to pray for.

Okay, I'll bite.

So, petition is shown now to work, so you claim that petition is not promised (though it is, if you have enough faith).

You claim that prayer is only about the holy spirit entering your life.  That is news to most Christians.  Why should I trust your interpretation?

Can you show that the holy spirit exists, and provides for a provably better life compared to those of a differing philosophy or religion?  If I pray for my imaginary friend Bob to enter my life, and I believe in Bob, and Bob's innate goodness to guide my life, does that provide any more or less benefit than Jesus?