Relevant article: Obesity Stigma And Yo-Yo Dieting, Not BMI, Are Behind Chronic Health Conditions, Dietitian Claims

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(September 18, 2019 at 5:47 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(September 18, 2019 at 3:00 pm)Aegon Wrote: I'm aware. We did, though, which is my point. It's what I learned growing up, and it's what a lot of people still think to be true because they were taught it.

In my professional experience, most obese individuals today don’t come close to meeting even what the outdated pyramid from 30 years ago recommends, lol. It’s a total strawman.

Well they definitely eat more bread than vegetables

That's nonsense. You have a choice to eat healthy or not eat healthy.

It's as if the concepts of choice and personal responsibility are completely out the window in 2019. No one wants to be at fault for their own decisions. Also, since none of you seem to have actually watched the bit from Real Time, here's a link.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm4TAdiEFn0

Notice the part where Maher explicitly says:

"We shouldn't taunt people about it. And we shouldn't single out overeating as the only vice."

(September 18, 2019 at 7:43 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: That's nonsense. You have a choice to eat healthy or not eat healthy.

But surely you agree that the choice can be affected by other factors.
What affected your choices when you were fat?
Why were you fat for so long?
Why didn't you lose weight sooner?
And lastly, could your answers for the last three questions be different to other people's?
If so, you might not really understand, even though you were fat.
That photo of you is an old one, isn't it? ;-)

(September 18, 2019 at 7:36 pm)Aegon Wrote: Relevant article: Obesity Stigma And Yo-Yo Dieting, Not BMI, Are Behind Chronic Health Conditions, Dietitian Claims

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(September 18, 2019 at 5:47 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: In my professional experience, most obese individuals today don’t come close to meeting even what the outdated pyramid from 30 years ago recommends, lol. It’s a total strawman.

Well they definitely eat more bread than vegetables

Sure, but you can’t really blame the food pyramid for that, considering that our most obese citizens are typically the poorest and least educated, and many of them have never even seen it. Most education materials developed by public health organizations sit at an 8th grade reading level for this reason. 

Do you know how many calories a 400 lb adult needs to consume simply to maintain that weight? For a male (depending on his age) it can be upwards of 4,000 kcals/day. Morbidly obese folks aren’t morbidly obese because the food pyramid told them to eat more rice than apples. They’re morbidly obese because they’re eating an entire 24 cut pizza in one sitting, and washing it down with a 2 liter of Pepsi. I’ve seen this with my own two eyes. The more you consume in one sitting, the larger your stomach capacity becomes over time. To compound the issue, chronic over-eating and excess body fat disrupt the signals of key hormones responsible for sensations of hunger and satiety. Our 400 lb man described above could eat that entire pizza and still feel hungry. To compound the issue even further, it is a scientifically demonstrable fact that obese people who lose a significant amount of body weight have a lower resting metabolism than people who weigh exactly the same, and have always weighed that much. It can be upwards of 500 kcals less per day. That’s an entire meal. I believe this fact plays a key role in why it’s so hard for people to sustain dramatic weight loss over time.

So, let’s take our patient and flesh him out a bit. I did my clinical rotation at the Albany VA hospital, and I worked for two years at an upscale nursing and rehab center, so I’ve seen people on every point of the spectrum. I’ll give you a picture of my average patient:

55 year old male
400 lbs, 5ft, 7”
Medical diagnosis: morbid obesity, type II diabetes (uncontrolled), coronary artery disease, sleep apnea, congestive heart failure, chronic kidney disease, dislipidemia, depression, right side below the knee amputation, cellulitis of the left leg with an open ulcer on the heel, PTSD.

Our patient lives alone in an apartment in a bad area of the city. He has no family locally. He dropped out of school in 7th grade, and did a stint in the military. He doesn’t drive. His wife (and care giver) died last year. He smokes two packs of cigarettes a day and eats mostly fried chicken and ice cream because those stores are the closest to his home, and he doesn’t feel safe going much further due to his PTSD. He often eats a half gallon of ice cream and a whole chicken in one sitting. He reports he started having weight problems as a child after he was molested by a friend of the family. He’s tried to lose weight in the past because he knows he’s unhealthy, but he feels hungry all the time. He also eats because he’s depressed over losing his wife. 

This man didn’t get in this condition because of the food pyramid. And, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as personal responsibility, or social programs that could provide aid to a person like this, (otherwise dietitians would be out of a job), but the people in this thread who have been insinuating that the solution to the maddeningly complex and multifaceted epidemic of obesity in America is: “fatties need to put down the fork” are demonstrating their bold-faced ignorance of the subject. You’re no better than the Trump supporters who say the solution to poverty in America is: “all the lazy people need to just get a job.” The guy I described above isn’t even the worst of what I’ve seen. Not even close.

(September 19, 2019 at 8:48 am)Little lunch Wrote: But surely you agree that the choice can be affected by other factors.
What affected your choices when you were fat?
Why were you fat for so long?
Why didn't you lose weight sooner?
And lastly, could your answers for the last three questions be different to other people's?
If so, you might not really understand, even though you were fat.
That photo of you is an old one, isn't it? ;-)

Your argument here is that because someone might have some issues that I may or may not understand... it isn't their fault?

Think of things for which you had no say or choice, your genetics, for example.  The place of your birth.  External circumstances or events in your life.  Now think of things that you do which aren't, strictly speaking, your choice.  Habits, compulsions, and general temperament.  Now think of things in which you do have a choice, but the options available to choose from are limited.   The quickest summary of things like that, in your own life, will yield a nearly bottomless crate of items. 

What people are asking you to consider, is that obesity may also be like those things, from your own life.  Not that there's no element of choice or personal responsibility, but that this grab bag of things, like they are in your life, might be a stronger influence.

(September 19, 2019 at 8:55 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: And, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as personal responsibility (or dietitians would be out of a job), but the people in this thread who have been insinuating that the solution to the maddeningly complex and multifaceted epidemic of obesity in America is: “fatties need to put down the fork” are demonstrating their bold-faced ignorance of the subject. You’re no better than the Trump supporters who say the solution to poverty in America is: “all the lazy people need to just get a job.” The guy I described above isn’t even the worst of what I’ve seen. Not even close.

That's not fair at all. No one is in here saying "fatties need to put down the fork," or anything close to it. That's completely disingenuous.

I don't think anyone is denying the complex issues that contribute to weight gain, or to someone failing to build the motivation to lose weight. Obviously, at least to me, the obesity epidemic in this country is an issue that runs much deeper than food. I think we have issues with mental health in this country that are largely ignored, and I would argue that people who are obese, and plenty who are overweight, are probably using food as a mechanism for comfort, and not just blindly eating too much without realizing it, or ignorantly eating unhealthy foods (though I'm sure that happens in plenty of cases too). It doesn't mean everyone is completely aware of what they're doing either, and that's part of the problem as well.

However, this doesn't deny the simple fact that if you burn more calories than you eat, you will lose weight. Analyzing the problem to death doesn't change that. If someone needs to get help for depression or something, great. Go do that, more power to you. Tackling the deeper issues behind the overeating is probably gonna help someone, so that's fine. But at some point, a person has to decide what is important to them. I have to ask the over-eater, "What kind of person do you want to be?"

Do you want to be the person who overeats because they're depressed? And then in turn feels more depressed about themselves, causing more overeating? If so, continue on the cycle you're on. Or, do you want to take control of your life, start eating healthy, tracking your calories and getting some daily exercise in?

At the end of the day, it truly does come down to a simple decision. No one is saying it's easy. I know that just as well as anyone else. It's hard work. And it takes a lot of persistence; I almost gave up a couple dozen times, but I didn't. It is, however, simple.

I really do feel bad for people. But we cannot take away the concept of personal responsibility, and that's what a lot of this talk sounds like. It sounds like a way to excuse the behavior, and that, if anything, is condescending. People have the power to choose.

Grown adults who decide to continue the patterns of behavior that are making their lives worse should not expect anything other than what they've gotten before. In other words, if you keep eating unhealthy foods and keep deciding to not exercise, you deserve to be fat, and shouldn't be surprised when you have a host of health complications later in life because of it.

Treating people like they're too stupid or unaware to make their own decisions is so fucking condescending. And in your mind, people like me who are saying, "hey, you have the power to change, get up and move" are the ones looking down on people? LOL that's funny.

People have alot less power to choose what goes in their mouths than we like to imagine.  That part of us is ancient and hardwired.  The choosing part, well, not so much...if at all. The whole drama plays out under a crushing set of external factors regardless of our ability to choose.

You know when you choose the pizza it's an unhealthy choice. And you know you should have went with the salad. That's called a choice. Trying to write this off as some sort of deterministic fate that none of us can control is just a lame attempt at discrediting personal responsibility. Not having this argument with you, sorry.

No one is arguing against personal responsibility, they're commenting on the effigy you've built to it.