(November 30, 2019 at 9:53 am)Nay_Sayer Wrote:

(November 30, 2019 at 4:12 am)Apathyst Wrote:

That was sad.

1: My comment was directed at Klorophyll, So did you just admit, accidentally, this is a sock account?

2: Really quick with the "I was criticized, Racist!" card aren't we?

Extra prayers for you. RAmen

Not a sock and my racist remark was not in response to any criticism of me.

(November 30, 2019 at 7:58 am)Klorophyll Wrote: I think you missed the point of the argument, the Qur'an isn't [just] the most eloquent piece of Arabic literature, it also challenged everybody else to come up with something comparable. Also, Muhammad didn't show up out of nowhere and told the arab clans : look at my 600+ pages eloquent book of epic proportions, because in which case one can simply say he took dozens of years preparing and polishing the book with the help of the most talented linguists etc. the words were uttered almost spontaneously by Muhammad according to the situation.

So says Islamic tradition. Do we have historical evidence to back this up?

According to Catholic tradition, Mary was perpetually a virgin and assumed into heaven upon her death. Doesn't make it true.

Even so, all this shows is that Muhammad was exceptionally good with Arabic words. So even in your description of the tradition you speak of, you don't bring up anything blatantly miraculous.

Quote:The bottom line is that the way the Qur'an came into being cannot be explained (unless you have a reasonable explanation) by natural events.

So an argument from ignorance then.

(November 30, 2019 at 7:58 am)Klorophyll Wrote: I think you missed the point of the argument, the Qur'an isn't [just] the most eloquent piece of Arabic literature, it also challenged everybody else to come up with something comparable. Also, Muhammad didn't show up out of nowhere and told the arab clans : look at my 600+ pages eloquent book of epic proportions, because in which case one can simply say he took dozens of years preparing and polishing the book with the help of the most talented linguists etc. the words were uttered almost spontaneously by Muhammad according to the situation.

You know, this claim always puzzles me. Even from the point of view of literary criticism, it is poorly written by any standard.

(November 30, 2019 at 7:58 am)Klorophyll Wrote: The bottom line is that the way the Qur'an came into being cannot be explained (unless you have a reasonable explanation) by natural events.

Sure. Some blokes wrote some stuff many centuries ago. So did plenty of other blokes. End of story.

(November 30, 2019 at 10:17 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Why should I regard your fairy story as more accurate than any of the others?

Because he has a book silly and the book says he’s right...well aside from the other guys wit the same book who say he’s wrong because of some esoteric interpretation that is obvious to everyone who agrees it’s obvious, and the other guys who have a different book that disagree with that book and of course the guys who have the same book but disagree with their interpretation if it. You know what, maybe we should just get rid of books seems to be the easiest solution. Hard to argue how many whatsits can fit on the head of a pin if you can’t point to a paragraph in a book that talks about what kind of zipper is appropriate for people living on the east side of some river that got sick when a Hippo crossed some road...probably chasing a chicken anyway it’s obvious books are the problem. Without books it’s just crazy people ranting (well it is with books too but some people seem to think if a crazy person is ranting but has a book then they may not be crazy...even when the book says nothing close to what they say it does....but I digress...

It's funny how certain mind-altering substances are illegal and treated as detrimental. However, thought suppressing horseshit such as this, is not only legal, but is also glorified to comically ludicrous proportions.

Kidding aside, what would be the advantage to me of 'embracing Islam'?  I've never, for as long as I can recall, been a believer in any religion.  I'm in a gloriously happy marriage, I have friends and family who care about me, I have work that interests and engages me, my health is good, I've got bags of free time, and - while not exactly rich - I've done well enough to retire in a couple of years.

So, in what way do you imagine embracing Islam would make things better for me?

Boru

(November 30, 2019 at 11:11 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Again, that's no argument "He didn't read the Koran" but avoiding his actual claims that he said about Islam and because, I'm assuming, you can't handle them.

A lot of people didn't read "Mein Kampf" but can make true criticism about Nazism and Fascism.

A more reasonable assumption from your part would be that Dawkins was outright wrong and anything he utters about this particular religion should be treated with a grain of salt.

Moreover, since "Mein Kampf" and the Qur'an are to some degree comparable to you, you clearly need to read the latter.

Hey assclown, why don't you go eat some bacon and go peddle this pigshit somewhere else?

Thank you very much. Have a nice day.

(November 30, 2019 at 8:37 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(November 30, 2019 at 11:11 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Again, that's no argument "He didn't read the Koran" but avoiding his actual claims that he said about Islam and because, I'm assuming, you can't handle them.

A lot of people didn't read "Mein Kampf" but can make true criticism about Nazism and Fascism.

A more reasonable assumption from your part would be that Dawkins was outright wrong and anything he utters about this particular religion should be treated with a grain of salt.

Moreover, since "Mein Kampf" and the Qur'an are to some degree comparable to you, you clearly need to read the latter.

Good point. Hitler never had sex with a child.

(November 30, 2019 at 2:37 pm)Grandizer Wrote: So says Islamic tradition. Do we have historical evidence to back this up?

According to Catholic tradition, Mary was perpetually a virgin and assumed into heaven upon her death. Doesn't make it true.

Even so, all this shows is that Muhammad was exceptionally good with Arabic words. So even in your description of the tradition you speak of, you don't bring up anything blatantly miraculous.

Everything reliable islamic tradition says is based on Isnad which, roughly speaking, determines the degree of confidence we can have about some particular statement Muhammad said, and we do that by looking at the chain of known historical figures who reported the subject and how truthful they are etc.

It's a complicated subject, and actually an entire field of study in Islamic theology given its importance. It's enough to know that it was acclaimed even by orientalist scholars:



If Muhammad's challenge is successful, there is no way around warranting a supernatural entity. How else can one explain uttering extraordinarily good literature dealing with all aspects of life and challenging all the future generations to come up with anything remotely comparable.

Also, his claim was by and large falsifiable, as any contemporary could've noticed an internal inconsistency or come up with his own version of a holy book, but none of that was reported despite the Qur'an itself reporting all the famous objections made by Meccan pagans to Muhammad's message.

This might seem like empty words to anyone who doesn't understand Arabic. But I think it's enough for a nonnative speaker to know that Arabic grammar itself was built in large parts around the literary themes of this holy book.