And Allah couldn't do all that with a different universe why?

The soul forge strikes again, lol. Apparently, "Allah" both can't make us in any other universe, and can't forge our souls in any other universe.

Had to be this one, because creation and soul forging are both hit by a hard material limit, lol.

Who knows. Maybe this god, wholly constrained by those limits though he is, is still pretty damned powerful and actually did want to test us here. To see if we'd believe loopy shit, completely rejecting the intelligence he designed within us.

(January 7, 2020 at 6:22 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: And Allah couldn't do all that with a different universe why?

He sent us down from the original universe we were in to be tested here.

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(January 7, 2020 at 6:29 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: The soul forge strikes again, lol.  Apparently, "Allah" both can't make us in any other universe, and can't forge our souls in any other universe.

Had to be this one, because creation and soul forging are both hit by a hard  material limit, lol.

Who knows.  Maybe this god, wholly constrained by those limits though he is, is still pretty damned powerful and actually did want to test us here.  To see if we'd believe loopy shit, completely rejecting the intelligence he designed within us.

We were made in another universe originally; this life is timed and the evidence is death. Death is when our clock checks the end of the test.

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 7, 2020 at 11:35 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Why would Allah need to design a universe to accommodate us? Can we not live in any universe Allah chooses? So out of the infinite possible universes to have us in, why make one where we require highly specific conditions to exist? Allah could have us living on a neutron star if he wanted, right?

He created us in it to test us via our response to good events and bad events.
The universe is the perfect environment for that: it hammers all creations with good events -like food- and bad events -like hunger-.

Thus Allah is not omniscient.

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Humans would live for a certain time in it, then die; with a record written by God for how each of us responded.

Thus Allah is not omnipotent. He has no choice but to make a record of events he cannot predict.

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Then each shall go to either hell or paradise, depending on their record.

Thus Allah is not omnibenevolent. Why should finite "sins" result in infinite torment?

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I think hell can be this long long long hellish end of the universe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o...far_future

Thus Allah has no control over any outcome, and nobody goes to hell.

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Losers in the test would remain in this universe, while winners would go to another universe.

In our lifetimes?

You are positing a constrained deity who seems incapable of doing anything useful. Not even to himself.

At work.

(January 7, 2020 at 5:37 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 7, 2020 at 12:00 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: Ah! The 'What if the rest state of the electron/proton or neutron changes? Or something about them is not constant?' question.

Yes, it's a good question to think about [i]but[/i,] I would add, the sort of question that the lay-men (Such as ourselves) can do little more than look on from the side lines as those properly grounded in the subject hash out such things.

The 'Butterfly effect' simply refers to 'Chaos'.... As well, perhaps, Godel's incompleteness theorem.

Nothing really reality shattering in things that are totally unpredictable.

Since, as fractals and such show, even from chaos..... can produce a sort of 'Order' and patterns.

"Butterfly Effect" shows the massive amount of fragility in our reality; nothing too "mighty" would change because of something so small.

Let me justify this thought: the universe is what it is today and "we" are what we are today, is because certain and specific events led to our reality. 

In other words we exist. Something pulled the strings and sparked the events that would lead to a big bang that would throw out the universe we see today.

If this universe is strong, then how is it so variable like a paste?

Who what now?

No, that's not how 'Probabilities' work.

That's like saying it's impossible for a coin to land on either 'Heads' OR 'Tails' when spun into the air within a gravity well.

The 'Rest mass' or particles is kind of only sort of connected to 'The butterfly effect'.

But I'll let others far more knowledgeable than I continue the conversation.

Admitting "I don't know" is a good thing. If sometimes mentally unsatisfying.

Cheers.

Mister Agenda:
And Allah couldn't do all that with a different universe why?

allah was too busy serenading Porky Pig.

At work.

(January 8, 2020 at 1:39 am)no one Wrote: Mister Agenda:
And Allah couldn't do all that with a different universe why?

allah was too busy serenading Porky Pig.

Well...... If Allah is only limited to creating this, one reality......

It kind of makes them a somewhat 'Lesser' diety, no?

Cheers.

(January 7, 2020 at 5:37 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: "Butterfly Effect" shows the massive amount of fragility in our reality; nothing too "mighty" would change because of something so small.

For the second time: No it does not!

It has nothing to do with the effects on our universe by changing fundamenal constants. It has nothing to do with the *fragility* (whatever you mean by that) of our reality. Our reality is actually pretty stable, for some 14bio years now.

What the butterfly effect shows is the effects by changing the starting conditions of complex, nonlinear systems (= our reality). The preconditions are changed, and the system is given. What you are referring to is changing the (behaviour of the) system itself, not the preconditions. Thats fundamentally not the same

Applying the butterfly effect on the universe would rather be something like: Adding more (Or less) mass, or temperature, or whatever, with the fundamental laws of phsics being the same.

Changing fundamental constants =!= changing preconditions

(January 7, 2020 at 10:16 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: He created us in it to test us via our response to good events and bad events.
The universe is the perfect environment for that: it hammers all creations with good events -like food- and bad events -like hunger-.

Thus Allah is not omniscient.

He is fair and just, thus we must do the deed before we get judged.

Quote:

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Humans would live for a certain time in it, then die; with a record written by God for how each of us responded.

Thus Allah is not omnipotent. He has no choice but to make a record of events he cannot predict.

No. But as I told you in the previous point he is just and fair.
#note: "Just" is a trait of his; it is attributed to him in the Quran.

Quote:

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Then each shall go to either hell or paradise, depending on their record.

Thus Allah is not omnibenevolent. Why should finite "sins" result in infinite torment?

"omnibenevolent" is not a correct word thus I didn't understand what you mean by it.
The torture isn't infinite, but subject to his will. Though it is extremely long -by long I mean eons-.
Who knows -except God- what the effect of sins is? Remember "The Butterfly Effect" and its famous phrase: "The flap of a butterfly’s wings in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas"

Quote:

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I think hell can be this long long long hellish end of the universe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o...far_future

Thus Allah has no control over any outcome, and nobody goes to hell.

No. The winners will be taken by God to paradise.
The damned would remain behind to suffer the eons atop of eons in hell.

Quote:

(January 7, 2020 at 5:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Losers in the test would remain in this universe, while winners would go to another universe.

In our lifetimes?

No, after death.

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(January 8, 2020 at 3:02 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(January 7, 2020 at 5:37 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: "Butterfly Effect" shows the massive amount of fragility in our reality; nothing too "mighty" would change because of something so small.

For the second time: No it does not!

It has nothing to do with the effects on our universe by changing fundamenal constants. It has nothing to do with the *fragility* (whatever you mean by that) of our reality. Our reality is actually pretty stable, for some 14bio years now.

What the butterfly effect shows is the effects by changing the starting conditions of complex, nonlinear systems (= our reality). The preconditions are changed, and the system is given. What you are referring to is changing the (behaviour of the) system itself, not the preconditions. Thats fundamentally not the same

Applying the butterfly effect on the universe would rather be something like: Adding more (Or less) mass, or temperature, or whatever, with the fundamental laws of phsics being the same.

Changing fundamental constants =!= changing preconditions

Matter in fact; there is a time when a second big bang might occur -according the theory of The Big Crunch-:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch

Actually if our deeds do affect the world, then they would also affect how the next big bang would happen: its magnitude, its productions too.

Making our deeds changing for our future.

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 7, 2020 at 10:16 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Thus Allah is not omniscient.

He is fair and just, thus we must do the deed before we get judged.

Not according to your magic book he isn't. Said book keeps repeating that Allah is fair and just while at the same time demonstrating that he is not.

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 7, 2020 at 10:16 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Thus Allah is not omnipotent. He has no choice but to make a record of events he cannot predict.

No. But as I told you in the previous point he is just and fair.
#note: "Just" is a trait of his; it is attributed to him in the Quran.

Magic book says no. Allah, as described, is a bloodthirsty monster, neither fair nor just.

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:Thus Allah is not omnibenevolent. Why should finite "sins" result in infinite torment?

"omnibenevolent" is not a correct word thus I didn't understand what you mean by it

Thus Allah is capable of evil. OK then. Now that we have established that...

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The torture isn't infinite, but subject to his will. Though it is extremely long -by long I mean eons-.

That makes no difference.

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Who knows -except God- what the effect of sins is?

According to YOU, he makes it up on a whim, and since we agree Allah is capable of evil, then whence justice?

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Remember "The Butterfly Effect" and its famous phrase: "The flap of a butterfly’s wings in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas"

Sorry, but your lame attempt to hijack the mathematics of chaos in service of an imaginary deity fails.

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:Thus Allah has no control over any outcome, and nobody goes to hell.

No. The winners will be taken by God to paradise.
The damned would remain behind to suffer the eons atop of eons in hell.

Thus allah is not at all merciful.

(January 9, 2020 at 6:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:In our lifetimes?

No, after death.

Demonstrate any post mortem existence, please. You cannot. You are merely dangling a promise that you cannot fulfil, nor can demonstrate the reality of it. Or anything about it. Because you know nothing about it. All you have is the insane ramblings of a stupid book. Guess what. There are many stupid books. I do not believe those either.

Amusingly, you are unable to appeal to an argumentum ad populum because you are fringe islam. And lack the  populum. You also lack the argumentum part. You simply start with a conclusion and stubbornly work backwards from there against any and all actual evidence or lack thereof.