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Arguments against Soul
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Assuming the existence of something which we don't even understand because you would like to be "the best answer" means absolutely nothing.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
(January 28, 2020 at 1:39 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I see two things not like the others Tack. The relationship between souls and NDEs or the supernatural is obvious. The rest, not so much.It's ironic that people are often claiming free will proves the existence of God, when in fact it proves that an omniscient God (and God is usually defined to be omniscient) can't possibly exist.  (January 29, 2020 at 5:26 am)FlatAssembler Wrote:(January 28, 2020 at 1:39 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I see two things not like the others Tack. The relationship between souls and NDEs or the supernatural is obvious. The rest, not so much.It's ironic that people are often claiming free will proves the existence of God, when in fact it proves that an omniscient God (and God is usually defined to be omniscient) can't possibly exist. How does an omniscient God prove that free will can't exist? You can freely choose an action. God, knowing the future, would know that you will choose it. But that doesn't mean that you didn't choose it. RE: Arguments against Soul
January 29, 2020 at 6:59 am
(This post was last modified: January 29, 2020 at 7:02 am by The Grand Nudger.)
This old chestnut again. Yes, a predetermined choice means that you didn't choose in any meaningful sense of the word, and so, can only have a compatibilist, rather than free, will.
At least with regard to that selection. Maybe there are other things that aren't predetermined. : shrugs :
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
 RE: Arguments against Soul
January 29, 2020 at 11:21 am
(This post was last modified: January 29, 2020 at 11:24 am by tackattack.)
(January 28, 2020 at 1:23 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote: I'd be more than happy to discuss my views on souls down 1 or maybe 2 of these paths at a time, but in this format it would take far too much of my little time to do them all. Do you have one or two you'd particularly care to discuss. You seem ambivalent at some and irked by others so I'd like to not presume your preference. (January 29, 2020 at 12:27 am)EgoDeath Wrote: Assuming the existence of something which we don't even understand because you would like to be "the best answer" means absolutely nothing. And so you'd obvious rather not define and discuss souls when presented the opportunity to, noted. @Gae Bolga it wasn't an exhaustive list of reasons, simply a path for the conversation to move into as I've thought about those areas with relationship to souls. I'm always up for other directions as well. Do you have any suggestions?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari RE: Arguments against Soul
January 29, 2020 at 11:27 am
(This post was last modified: January 29, 2020 at 11:31 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Sure, my suggestion was that we explore those items you listed. Two of those things have an obvious relationship. The rest, I'll wait for some comment from you on why you feel they're all part of the same set. I also suggested that nde's and the supernatural powerfully argue -against- the soul as being related to the others.
You cannot genuinely hold those beliefs while accepting soul-as-seat of consciousness. If there is a soul, and it's meaningfully non-natural, and people leave their bodies with it, then none of the things that a natural organ does are properties of that explicitly defined-as-other x.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
@Gae Bolga I'll content that there is a soul, and use your definitions that it is meaningfully non-natural and leaves people's bodies. Given those were true, why would a list of natural properties (P) be mutually exclusive to the functioning properties (F) of an other (x)? for example, If I (primary natural X) were to create a robot (other x) why couldn't that x have the same ability to calculate, think, decide, move an elbow identical to X. x could be designed, or learn, P so that they're included in the F of x.
Let's just deal with the NDEs and supernatural paths to a soul then work on the others and set A's relation to the others. I believe nonphysical veridical perception of NDEs are best explained by substance duality than a physical-ist view. I believe ghost and apparitions are too common and specific to be explained as our minds playing tricks on us and is better answered if ghosts are either derivative soul or spirit in unrest.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari RE: Arguments against Soul
January 29, 2020 at 12:47 pm
(This post was last modified: January 29, 2020 at 1:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Do these ghosts and apparitions, derivative souls and spirits in unrest have sensory experiences?
Telling me that you believe in ghosts doesn't tell me why you believe in ghosts. In fact it doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. If, however, we're going to go down the rabbit hole of "I believe this, because I believe that"..well.....have fun? You said you thought that this was the best explanation, not the one that you're invested in by other equally unevidenced beliefs. Is an argument from incredulity convincing, and do you think that ghosts and apparitions are more common or specific than minds "playing tricks"? -Bonus q, and something I've long wondered about this take, these semantics - what would qualify as a mind not "playing tricks"? What does a mind have to be doing to clear that hurdle for you? If you prefer, approached from the other angle, if soul is the seat of consciousness, and mind "plays tricks"...wouldn't that mean that soul is ultimately playing the trick? What would soul have to do to clear the same hurdle?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
@Gae Bolga I apologize if it came across as an argument from incredulity, it wasn't my intent. We all look for the best reasons for our belief, that's how people (even scientist and materialists) work. We look for the most consistent explanation, which may or may not be the simplest according to Occam's razor. Usually that's science, but not always. I have not had observable experiences with visual apparitions. I have spoken with people I trust that share of their experiences with visual apparitions. None have reported apparitions speaking, hearing, touching (in the normal sense) them physically. I would assume, from what I understand of ghosts and apparitions that they do not have sensory experiences based on the standard sensory perceptions "alive" people have. I would rate them as alive though as in able to learn/think.
You haven't answer my question as to why on why features of X or other x would be mutually exclusive.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari RE: Arguments against Soul
January 29, 2020 at 1:11 pm
(This post was last modified: January 29, 2020 at 1:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-and the super round, giving you plenty to think about. Is god of two substances? Does the rationalization of "I believe in this because I believe in that" actually fit with your beliefs about the nature of the all?
It's true by definition that something defined as meaningfully non natural cannot be...well...natural. You've defined experience as non natural, and contended that ghosts leave their bodies and have experiences. Well, fine, but if so, this can't be..when we look..an example of a natural organ doing natural things in the natural world. Any opf those things are not the things you're referring to, because the things that you're referring to are non natural. You've explicitly staked out an opposition to any such fact. We don't need eyes to see, if ghost eyes can see. We don't need skin to feel, if the ethereal plasma can feel. We don't need ears to hear, if casper can hold a tune, and we certainly don't need brains to manage all of this data if our immortal souls are doing it just fine. So, would you like to look?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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