(October 20, 2011 at 6:12 pm)IATIA Wrote: At what point is the line drawn?

This is not for the faint of heart! This is a real life horror story from first hand experience and still quite depressing. I no longer work in the medical field because of religion.

With these several threads on abortion, capital punishment etc., where some responses were "it is always wrong to kill", I thought I would go all the way.

Again! This is not for the faint of heart. This is a true story. I was there.

In the mid seventies, I worked at a children's hospital in the emergency room as an EMT. If things were slow in the ER and there was a shortage on one of the floors, they would send some of us up to help out. I was assigned to the 'premie' unit one night where the premature infants were kept on life support because 'pulling the plug' was not acceptable.

Now, this is not an isolated case nor the worst case I have ever had to deal with. This baby was 2-3 months premature and had a breathing tube and an IV for food. The child was never conscious and for all intents and purposes, dead. The problem was that the heart did not know this and kept on beating, so exhaustive efforts (labor, resources, finances, etc) were made to keep this child alive.

One of the maintenance procedures each shift was to remove the breathing tube, clean and re-insert it. One shift that I was on, as the nurse removed the breathing tube, the tongue came out with the tube. After cleaning, the nurse attempted to re-insert the tube and now pieces of the mouth were coming apart, This child's whole body was completely necrotic. It was like old angel food cake and yet the heart kept going and so the resources.

It was "against god's law" to pull the plug and end this poor child's life.

If it was already "dead", why would it matter if they pulled the plug or not?
After all, it's not you who is paying for it.

If the heart is beating, it isn't technically dead, kilic.

(October 20, 2011 at 6:14 pm)Shell B Wrote: Oh, goodness. That is horrific!

Kilic, not all birth control measures are infallible. My sister has been pregnant twice since she had her tubes tied.

Well, that's really a rare case. But most of the abortion cases I've heard from people who had it(for unplanned pregnancies), told me that it was their fault. They didn't use birth control measures, were either under the influence of drugs, or alcohol.
In short, they were really, really stupid.

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(October 20, 2011 at 6:17 pm)Shell B Wrote: If the heart is beating, it isn't technically dead, kilic.

As good as dead, then. It really doesn't matter at all. The guy said himself that it was not there, like the baby had no consciousness at all.
If the parents didn't want it to be removed from life support, it's really their own choice. Here, people wouldn't even think twice if the doctor told them that it was not going to live for long.

(October 20, 2011 at 6:17 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Well, that's really a rare case. But most of the abortion cases I've heard from people who had it(for unplanned pregnancies), told me that it was their fault. They didn't use birth control measures, were either under the influence of drugs, or alcohol.
In short, they were really, really stupid.

I'm not saying they are smart. I am saying that people are neglectful and regret it all the time. Why should someone have their entire lives change because of one mistake? I should point out that I am not a fan of abortion as birth control, but I prefer that to having the idiots you speak of raise children.

(October 20, 2011 at 6:17 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(October 20, 2011 at 6:14 pm)Shell B Wrote: Oh, goodness. That is horrific!

Kilic, not all birth control measures are infallible. My sister has been pregnant twice since she had her tubes tied.

Well, that's really a rare case. But most of the abortion cases I've heard from people who had it(for unplanned pregnancies), told me that it was their fault. They didn't use birth control measures, were either under the influence of drugs, or alcohol.
In short, they were really, really stupid.

So they should pay for an error in judgement for 18 years? Chances are the 'father' is gone and a single mother can only look forward to a miserable life. A lot of times family will not help. Working to support the baby and themselves is tough if not all together nigh on impossible. There is no time for school, which means they have no chance to get out of this mess in a timely manner. All because of a lapse in judgement that could easily be fixed as long as a sky-daddy is not involved.

And if the baby does end up a premature birth do to a variety of factors, especially nutrition for the mother, who pays for all of this? I will write the check for the abortion in a second.

Quote:Why should someone have their entire lives change because of one mistake?

Did I said that they should change their lives?
I do not oppose their right to have an abortion. I just made it clear that I do not approve of their actions.

Quote:So they should pay for an error in judgement for 18 years? Chances are the 'father' is gone and a single mother can only look forward to a miserable life. A lot of times family will not help. Working to support the baby and themselves is tough if not all together nigh on impossible. There is no time for school, which means they have no chance to get out of this mess in a timely manner. All because of a lapse in judgement that could easily be fixed as long as a sky-daddy is not involved.

And if the baby does end up a premature birth do to a variety of factors, especially nutrition for the mother, who pays for all of this? I will write the check for the abortion in a second.

And none of those who make this error in judgement think even a second before doing what they do to experience the first signs of the terror that they should have felt while doing it without protection.
I seriously think that they deserve a lesson, however, I don't think that this should lead to any legal restrictions.

I think any insinuation that a girl would use abortion as a kind of 'fall back plan' is really fucking ludicrous, unless I'm mistaken and girls actually enjoy having invasive, dangerous procedures with an attached social stigma performed on them.

In a way, I agree with you, El Fudge. Not many women will do that. In my experience, most irresponsible women will just have the baby and neglect the fuck out of it. That way, they get pregnancy sympathy and attention, welfare and they do not have to pay for an abortion. For them, it's nine months off their lives, not 18 years.

(October 20, 2011 at 8:56 pm)Shell B Wrote: In a way, I agree with you, El Fudge. Not many women will do that. In my experience, most irresponsible women will just have the baby and neglect the fuck out of it. That way, they get pregnancy sympathy and attention, welfare and they do not have to pay for an abortion. For them, it's nine months off their lives, not 18 years.

Those are the ones that should be sterilized!

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(October 20, 2011 at 6:28 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I seriously think that they deserve a lesson, however, I don't think that this should lead to any legal restrictions.

The problem with 'lessons' is who really pays the price? The child, the family, the taxpayers ...

Fun story IATA. It is always revolting, even a mildly, when you see something that is inhuman in some manner.

Even the necrotic flesh of the effigy of a braindead infant.

And, on a side note, brain death, is unequivocally "death". Anything else, like with the heart beating, is an approximation, not a measure.

Once the brain fails, all bet's are off.