(March 12, 2020 at 3:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why?  Why would it indicate a problem in a harm based system..if, when harm is not present, a thing is not contended to be wrong?  is wrong™ about their relationships?

There are good reasons why we should consider open relationships wrong. You say there are some case where they don't violate commitment, I would say this detail is irrelevant, because on average, it does.

On average, one would expect someone to care less about his spouse with a third party around. It's something tautological, more individuals to be committed to means less attention to each individual.

(March 12, 2020 at 3:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yes, think this stuff through.  If and when a caring husband does prefer more than one partner...-and- that partner is okay with that - then what would be wrong™ about their relationship?

Again, you're inferring moral judgment from special cases. It might happen that a partner is okay with an open relationship, but we know that jealousy is the predominant theme with regards to marriage.

(March 12, 2020 at 3:34 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: No. It isn't. What any two or three or ten individuals get up to in the bedroom is no business of yours, mine or religions. If there is no harm, then it is not immoral.

Yeah, sure. Keep fucking. Just don't drive harrassment/rape statistics to unbearable levels.

(March 12, 2020 at 3:34 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: There is no reason why a multi-partner relationship cannot be committed.

And there you go, backing up committed orgies  
I think this is one of the things you just need to keep to yourselves, there, in your countries.

(March 12, 2020 at 3:34 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: That makes you sound like an inexperienced virgin child. "The gentle sex"? Fucking really? I have had partners who wanted to do things I refused to engage in. Women.

The "gentle sex"? Like hell they are.

You are a virgin.

English isn't my native language, maybe I should've framed that differently. Too bad women aren't regarded that highly, though, in your secular, modern moral system.

(March 12, 2020 at 4:00 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(March 12, 2020 at 3:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why?  Why would it indicate a problem in a harm based system..if, when harm is not present, a thing is not contended to be wrong?  is wrong™ about their relationships?

There are good reasons why we should consider open relationships wrong. You say there are some case where infidelity doesn't violate commitment, I would say this detail is irrelevant, because on average, it does.

Fine...on average.  I certainly wouldn't argue that the usual human compulsions and jealousies don't make an open relationship a long shot for the majority of people - but in stating that this is always wrong, we are stating that it is wrong for those people who can and do engage in just such a relationship without them.  


Again.  Why would it be wrong in their relationship? If two people are in an open relationship, and it is not harming them or anyone else...what...what exactly is wrong about their relationship?

Quote:

(March 12, 2020 at 3:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yes, think this stuff through.  If and when a caring husband does prefer more than one partner...-and- that partner is okay with that - then what would be wrong™ about their relationship?

Again, you're inferring moral judgment from special cases. It might happen that a partner is okay with an open relationship, but we know that jealousy is the predominant theme with regards to marriage.

God forbid my simple godless morality be able to describe and handle the usual dreck and special cases.  Golly gee, sounds like it's struggling so damned hard!

Either you can tell me what exactly is wrong, or you're "struggling" - and so this is not a genuine objection, between us.

(March 12, 2020 at 3:40 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: @Klorophyll
Haven't met many of us in real life, have you?

'The gentle sex'...thanks for the laugh.

Indeed. Anecdotal that may be, I have a hard time with that species known as women. Ya know, to pleasure them, to seduce them, to give my heart to them only to be turned to charcoal.

(March 12, 2020 at 4:17 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(March 12, 2020 at 3:40 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: @Klorophyll
Haven't met many of us in real life, have you?

'The gentle sex'...thanks for the laugh.

Indeed. Anecdotal that may be, I have a hard time with that species known as women. Ya know, to pleasure them, to seduce them, to give my heart to them only to be turned to charcoal.

Oh, that's just the gentle ones...it could be much, much worse.  

(March 12, 2020 at 10:22 am)Rahn127 Wrote: When looking at justification, religious reasons are at the top of the chart.

[...]

The justification used for world wide harm is religious in nature.

This isn't evident to me.

How do you demonstrate that this is the case?

Nothing that ever calls the moral judgement of religion into casual question is ever apparent to you, Bel. Maybe you should put down dante and pick up a tome on ethics? Denser read, but an intellectual like you would appreciate that.

(March 12, 2020 at 4:04 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(March 12, 2020 at 4:00 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: There are good reasons why we should consider open relationships wrong. You say there are some case where infidelity doesn't violate commitment, I would say this detail is irrelevant, because on average, it does.

Fine...on average.  I certainly wouldn't argue that the usual human compulsions and jealousies don't make an open relationship a long shot for the majority of people - but in stating that this is always wrong, we are stating that it is wrong for those people who can and do engage in just such a relationship without them. 

If you concede that it's mostly wrong, then open relationships being wrong is a safer moral assumption don't you think?

If jealousy is a built-in feature/compulsion then shouldn't we act upon it and not allow infidelity,. Isn't it the most natural, straightforward thing to do?

People engage in all kinds of behavior, it's really not rational to argue infidelity into being moral because a bunch of devious couples were okay with it.

(March 12, 2020 at 4:04 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Again.  Why would it be wrong in their relationship?  If two people are in an open relationship, and it is not harming them or anyone else...what...what exactly is wrong about their relationship?

If you insist on squeezing this bad thing about every possibly relationship, I would say you can't possibly know that an open relationship doesn't harm them, it might make the partner feel horribly bad or doubt himself or think about harming this third party.. but there might never be a concrete manifestation of these bad feelings. Again, on average, people act on these feelings and say no to this kind of *relationship*.

And I think this is reasonably sufficient grounds to consider open relationships immoral, or at least... not recommended

(March 12, 2020 at 4:53 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: If you concede that it's mostly wrong, then open relationships being wrong is a safer moral assumption don't you think?

If jealousy is a built-in feature/compulsion then shouldn't we act upon it and not allow infidelity,. Isn't it  the most natural, straightforward thing to do?

People engage in all kinds of behavior, it's really not rational to argue infidelity into being moral because a bunch of devious couples were okay with it.

You keep calling these people shitty names but you have yet to identify what would be wrong with their relationship, absent any harm.

Anytime now, don't be shy.

Quote:If you insist on squeezing this bad thing about every possibly relationship, I would say you can't possibly know that an open relationship doesn't harm them, it might make the partner feel horribly bad or doubt himself or think about harming this third party.. but there might never be a concrete manifestation of these bad feelings. Again, on average, people act on these feelings and say no to this kind of *relationship*.

And I think this is reasonably sufficient grounds to consider open relationships immoral, or at least... not recommended

Wonderful...and since you acknowledge that there are at least some people for whom an open relationship wouldn't be harmful..upon what basis is that open relationship harmful?  Obviously theres some "outside" of harm, in your moral system.

What is it?

I'm only kidding, lol.  I know what that is.  God said so.  Looks like god was trivially and demonstrably wrong. Until you suggest some other bad making property, an open relationship that isn't harmful isn't bad - at least not in any objective and therefore rational way.

-and we both put a high premium on moral systems being rational

(March 12, 2020 at 5:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(March 12, 2020 at 4:53 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: If you concede that it's mostly wrong, then open relationships being wrong is a safer moral assumption don't you think?

If jealousy is a built-in feature/compulsion then shouldn't we act upon it and not allow infidelity,. Isn't it  the most natural, straightforward thing to do?

People engage in all kinds of behavior, it's really not rational to argue infidelity into being moral because a bunch of devious couples were okay with it.

You keep calling these people shitty names but you have yet to identify what would be wrong with their relationship, absent any harm.

I think I explained myself pretty well... and you're not listening. *Open relationships* mostly trigger a built-in bad reaction, and most of the time people act on it, just act on your fucking evolutionary urges and condemn the thing. What other empirical grounds do you need to do the honest thing here? sneak up on every bed on earth out there and show me there is no ""bad-making"" property.. ???

If you're going to build a **rational** moral system... you better build your moral judgment on what happens on most cases, not on what these shitty, devious people do, kind of relying on empirical data... I'm starting to smell dishonesty when you keep repeating a question I already answered

(March 12, 2020 at 5:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Wonderful...and since you acknowledge that there are at least some people for whom an open relationship wouldn't be harmful.

I actually didn't acknowledge that.. Read again. I said you can't possibly know an open relatonship isn't harmful. You know, however, that it's mostly harmful.

Let me break it up for you:

In most cases : open relationships are a big no.

In very rare cases : open relationships appear not to be harmful.

Any sane person can now draw the conclusion... as to whether we should welcome open relationships with open arms ....

(March 12, 2020 at 4:00 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: English isn't my native language, maybe I should've framed that differently. Too bad women aren't regarded that highly, though, in your secular, modern moral system.

In my secular morality, women are regarded as equals, not as yours which regards women as mere property.

That makes you yet another abusive, woman bashing thug.

Well done you c""".

---

Virgin with an oppressed corpse bride at best. As a red blooded straight male, father of a trans teen, witness of how your misogyny totally borks 50% of fucking humanity, I know that you are full of it.

You and your crank religion are evil.

You would have that I murder my trans child a an abomination. You would have as a second position that I must deny that child ANY sex life, any intimate life.

Do you have no understanding how disgusting that is to any right thinking person?

You want me to kill my eldest child.

Because Allah says.

Have you no idea how morally lost you have become due to you magic book.

The reality is that I would give my life for my children, whoever they turn out to be.

OTOH, you would happily butcher your your own children because you imagine that the stupid Allah told you to do so.

I think it is rather clear which morals are more correct.