At work.

(June 2, 2020 at 9:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote: wut up dudes

As certain as I can be about anything, I'm certain that every earthly religion is full of crap. The gods we all worship are fictional characters. Every person who claims to have communicated with some god is, at best, confused about an unusual experience. I guess that still makes me an atheist.

But, I feel that there's enough of an opening in my mind to where I can say that I can accept the nominal not-impossibility that something like a god exists, and even that it was responsible for the creation of everything we consider reality. We are just stinky, sweaty meat bags with limited senses and perception. We know there was a big bang, and that set in motion all the mechanical and physical processes which govern the universe. We don't know, and perhaps can never know, if that event was the absolute beginning of all time, or if literally anything else happened before that. We don't, and cant, know why anything is here at all.

What separates this understanding from a theist's understanding is, these uncertainties and un-knowable factors do not mean a god is true, or likely, or possible. They merely provide an opening for the existence of such a being. Maybe a god, existing on a level we could never comprehend or sense, is behind it all. Maybe the universe, itself, is a god. Maybe existence is a daydream. Maybe a god is a fat, undersexed computer programmer on a higher plane of reality and we're all assets in a simulation. I really do not think any of these scenarios is impossible. Which, of course, does not imply any probability, but it also makes me reluctant to ever think the phrase "there's no such things as gods", because while that seems apparent to someone who isn't indoctrinated in a belief system, it's also maybe not true, and I don't believe science, or any other tool, can ever resolve that uncertainty.

If there is/are 'Q' like being(s) out there and Humanity comes across such then.....

.... In our inimical fashion......

We will attempt to shove that/those suckers into a hamster wheel and try to use said powers for our own advancement.


Such is Human nature.

In modern parlance it is summed up by the saying; "Hold my beer....."

OP, I think it's logically plausible that there is something out there akin to what could justifiably be labeled 'God', but if there does happen to be such a thing, I would take it more to be some sort of 'super entity' that is lacking in agency/intelligence/sentience (perhaps because such things are only applicable to limited beings like us) and is more what grounds everything else in existence. Something of the first-cause type argued for by Aristotle.

That said, we don't know much of anything regarding the origins of reality ultimately. So whatever it is out there, whether "first cause" or whatever, it's a mind-boggler.

(June 2, 2020 at 9:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote: ...I don't believe science, or any other tool, can ever resolve that uncertainty.

What uncertainty? You can't be a little bit pregnant, this thing is either a god or it isn't and if it isn't then why postulate such a thing, what does it explain?

(June 2, 2020 at 9:52 pm)no one Wrote: There's a definite distinction between what science can explain, and what humans understand about said science.

Alan Guth can explain "expansion" but I don't understand it.

WB, been a bit.

I disagree. I don't think that any gaps in our knowledge can open up a space for gods. Gaps in our knowledge don't open up a space for voltron, or cobra commander, or babe the blue ox, the hind, old man crow, br'er rabbit...etc etc etc.

Whens the last time anyone wondered whether Bella from Twilight might be real since there's stuff we don't know?

(June 3, 2020 at 6:36 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: WB, been a bit.  

I disagree.  I don't think that any gaps in our knowledge can open up a space for gods.  Gaps in our knowledge don't open up a space for voltron, or cobra commander, or babe the blue ox, the hind, old man crow, br'er rabbit...etc etc etc.

Whens the last time anyone wondered whether Bella from Twilight might be real since there's stuff we don't know?

Believers seek out the gaps and the cracks and stuff their god into them. Old game.

(June 2, 2020 at 10:42 pm)Fireball Wrote:

(June 2, 2020 at 10:29 pm)brewer Wrote: NO MORE WORSHIP FOR YOU.

Guys! Orange=former staff. I expect he's looking in on the place again.

Does that mean I can't have some fun with him?

NO MORE WORSHIP FOR YOU EITHER!

(June 2, 2020 at 9:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote: wut up dudes

As certain as I can be about anything, I'm certain that every earthly religion is full of crap. The gods we all worship are fictional characters. Every person who claims to have communicated with some god is, at best, confused about an unusual experience. I guess that still makes me an atheist.

This is very rational, and most likely correct.

Quote:But, I feel that there's enough of an opening in my mind to where I can say that I can accept the nominal not-impossibility that something like a god exists, and even that it was responsible for the creation of everything we consider reality. We are just stinky, sweaty meat bags with limited senses and perception. We know there was a big bang, and that set in motion all the mechanical and physical processes which govern the universe. We don't know, and perhaps can never know, if that event was the absolute beginning of all time, or if literally anything else happened before that. We don't, and cant, know why anything is here at all.

While it may be true, that the existence of something that may quality as a god, may not be impossible, that does not make it possible. The fact that something may not be logically impossible, does not mean that it is a possibility, by default. Possibility has to be demonstrated.

How can one determine if a god is a even a candidate explanation for the existence of the cosmos, if a cosmos creating god is not even a possibility?

Quote:What separates this understanding from a theist's understanding is, these uncertainties and un-knowable factors do not mean a god is true, or likely, or possible. They merely provide an opening for the existence of such a being. Maybe a god, existing on a level we could never comprehend or sense, is behind it all. Maybe the universe, itself, is a god. Maybe existence is a daydream. Maybe a god is a fat, undersexed computer programmer on a higher plane of reality and we're all assets in a simulation. I really do not think any of these scenarios is impossible. Which, of course, does not imply any probability, but it also makes me reluctant to ever think the phrase "there's no such things as gods", because while that seems apparent to someone who isn't indoctrinated in a belief system, it's also maybe not true, and I don't believe science, or any other tool, can ever resolve that uncertainty.

If gods do exist on a level the we could never sense or comprehend, then, there would be no rational warrant to believe they do exist. I am not claiming they don't exist, only that belief is unjustified.

There's a lot to reply to and to unpack. I'm forum-rusty, these days.

So, let's all approach what I'm saying with a firm understanding. The term 'god' is obviously super-loaded, and many of us here are seeing those three letters and it's Abraham's God most of our brains are immediately referencing, since that's how most of us encounter 'god' in our actual lives (otherwise, the gods are characters in books or movies, etc.)

But, a god can be something other than the omnipotent bearded sky daddy meme. The Greek gods were essentially magical superhumans. Hell, basically all the 'real world people still actively worship) gods are all magical superhumans, with human qualities and traits and motives. That's what makes them all seem fake to me. The worship element ties into that, some people insist on being worshiped and venerated and obeyed without question, and these are the guys who conquered kingdoms and invented gods who act the same way they do.

When I'm thinking about what a god might actually be if there was one, it necessarily, definitionally, must be an existence of a like I can't comprehend, outside and beyond anything my senses could ever reveal to me. That does not sound all that implausible. We have tetragazillions of bacteria living in our bodies, and not a single one of them has any capacity to be aware its entire universe is my asshole. I exist on a totally different level which has few analogs to the existence of a bacteriium. I'm unfathomably larger than said bacterium, my actions (and very existence) enable its existence. I can't make one exist out of thin air, but I have irresistible power of life or death. I massacre untold numbers of them on purpose all day, every day. Others, I permit to live in peace. The disparity of size and power is much greater, than between humans and lots of human gods.

I cannot argue that it is even unlikely to be true that we can all be like bacteria living in an asshole ourselves. I mean, there's literally no way argue it any which way, no way at all to say it's probably true, or probably not true. That's not a satisfying conclusion, but I didn't promise satisfaction. Interested to know the feelings of other atheists towards a hypothetical god of that description.

fyi I am not saying that I believe any such thing, just that I can't say I don't disbelieve it at all, either. Sure as hell not trying to convince anyone of anything. The whole reason I am curious at all is for curiosity's sake.

Getting stoned with Donald Sutherland an Animal house.

Good times! (well, except for his naked ass, where the bacteria live)