Just like the old "god or satan" can you show me that your perceived will is anything more than an illusion based upon a lack of data specific to yourself (and not lacking in the universe itself)?

Did you choose chocolate or vanilla or were you genetically predisposed. Did you choose to be a writer or were you conditioned, etc etc etc.

(October 26, 2011 at 6:15 pm)Shell B Wrote: Meh. Just because he is a genius does not mean he is right about everything. Sometimes, overanalyzing a thing takes away from its meaning, rather than adding to it.

Im willing to continue the debate with the assumption that freewill exists, but only under those conditions...that it is assumed.

(October 26, 2011 at 6:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Just like the old "god or satan" can you show me that your perceived will is anything more than an illusion based upon a lack of data specific to yourself (and not lacking in the universe itself)?

Did you choose chocolate or vanilla or were you genetically predisposed. Did you choose to be a writer or were you conditioned, etc etc etc.

Haha, every feeling is an illusion based on a number of factors. Therefore, there is no need to show that it is not. I still have the option to choose chocolate based on whatever factors lead me to prefer it -- thus, freewill.

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(October 26, 2011 at 6:28 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Im willing to continue the debate with the assumption that freewill exists, but only under those conditions...that it is assumed.

That is fine with me. I was never under the impression that it was tangible.

(October 26, 2011 at 3:24 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(October 26, 2011 at 9:37 am)lucent Wrote: It's entirely possible to have intellectually rewarding conversations about God free from acrimony. I know, because I've had them. There are thoughtful atheists out there who are willing to engage and have a reasoned debate that actually gets farther than "god is a fairytale and youre a moron". I don't know particularly what is poisoning the atmosphere here, but from I have gathered it is a selective enforcement of the rules. The reasoning I have heard is..theists mistreat atheists in their forums, therefore, we get to mistreat theists here. Well, even if that were universally true, which I know it isn't, it certainly doesn't speak to the claim that atheism is in any wise superior to theism. Rather, it shows it is petty and vindictive.

Then leave. None of us are keeping you here. If you dont like the atmosphere around here, then goodbye.

Also, if you expect us to respect delusional rantings, then you should leave. This forum is one of the most laid back and inviting atheist forum on the net when it comes to theism.

So, if you think we are petty and vindictive to you, then leave.

Nevermind..the conversation has turned..i retract my statement.

(October 26, 2011 at 3:50 pm)Shell B Wrote: That being said, get this long-winded thread back on topic you bunch of meatballs. ElD, you may look edible in a suit, but stop baiting Salty into saying you are going to hell. If you bait her, I will not warn her.

Errrm, sorry, but I don't care if she gets warned or not. I want salty to admit she thinks I'm going to hell so I can tie her in knots again about whether I deserve to or not. I'm happy to do it in a new thread if you like, but it followed on organically from the discussion that was ongoing. I suppose I could come up with a list of words beginning with S, to keep the thread on track though?

(October 26, 2011 at 6:52 pm)ElDinero Wrote:

(October 26, 2011 at 3:50 pm)Shell B Wrote: That being said, get this long-winded thread back on topic you bunch of meatballs. ElD, you may look edible in a suit, but stop baiting Salty into saying you are going to hell. If you bait her, I will not warn her.

Errrm, sorry, but I don't care if she gets warned or not. I want salty to admit she thinks I'm going to hell so I can tie her in knots again about whether I deserve to or not. I'm happy to do it in a new thread if you like, but it followed on organically from the discussion that was ongoing. I suppose I could come up with a list of words beginning with S, to keep the thread on track though?

Everyone deserves to go to hell, including Christians. Salvation is by grace, which is unmerited favor.

(October 26, 2011 at 6:52 pm)ElDinero Wrote: Errrm, sorry, but I don't care if she gets warned or not. I want salty to admit she thinks I'm going to hell so I can tie her in knots again about whether I deserve to or not. I'm happy to do it in a new thread if you like, but it followed on organically from the discussion that was ongoing. I suppose I could come up with a list of words beginning with S, to keep the thread on track though?

That lasted three posts, this has been going on for as many pages. You know that she thinks you are going to hell. You know that she thinks you deserve it. You also know that she is the type of Christian who chooses not to say things outright. Waste your time all you want, but she doesn't even know what freewill means. Perhaps you should start there.

That being said, I was mostly teasing you. It is the discussion about disagreeing being a personal affront that has gone off-topic for days. I was telling those who participated in it to get back on topic. You made a total of three or four posts regarding your destination after death. I thought it was obvious that my get back on topic was not directed at you.

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(October 26, 2011 at 6:55 pm)lucent Wrote: Everyone deserves to go to hell, including Christians. Salvation is by grace, which is unmerited favor.

Prove it.

So, it is the basic assertion of Christians here that there is freewill in heaven, correct? ElD pointed out that he cannot fuck in Heaven, presumably. Perhaps one of you can answer, bluntly, how not being allowed to do something you are capable of doing is freewill? This is assuming of course that god actually stops you from having sex, thus rendering the choice not a choice at all.

(October 26, 2011 at 7:01 pm)Shell B Wrote: Prove it.

Romans 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Gods justice is perfect. While He will ultimately never fail to punish sin, He is patient and merciful and desires for all come to repentance. For those who are unrepentant of their sins, and wish to be separated from God, they will get what they want, though not how they want it The only ones who end up in hell will be unrepentant sinners, and those because they failed to heed the many warnings they received.

Yes, there is freewill in Heaven, but it will much different there than it is here. The things we do as limited beings made of flesh will not carry over. We will be spiritual beings with unlimited possibilities, and the former things will no longer satisfy or interest us. It would be like wanting to go from a utopia to 16th century london. Is there sex in heaven? It doesn't say, but it does say we will be like the angels who are not given in marriage. Presumably, if procreation is no longer necessary sex will no longer be an option. This isn't to say that this kind of intimacy would be impossible; rather it is certain it will be far exceeded in every way.

Oh, goodness. That doesn't say people deserve hell at all.

The rest of what you just said is, well, not correct. You can't redefine freewill just because it is heaven.

(October 26, 2011 at 7:36 pm)Shell B Wrote: Oh, goodness. That doesn't say people deserve hell at all.

The rest of what you just said is, well, not correct. You can't redefine freewill just because it is heaven.

Are you saying that if you break the law you don't deserve punishment?

I haven't redefined it, I am saying that the way of things will be much different..the reasons people choose the activities they do here is because of the limitations of our existence, and the lack of knowledge..there knowledge will be in full. We will know everything that ever happened on Earth to the last detail. It is going to be a lot different.