No, I do not feel I should obey laws that I disagree with. However, some of them I refrain from breaking because the punishment isn't worth it. Nonetheless, I have broken a great deal of laws in my life, though I do not steal or hurt people.

No one created me. Either way, I still want to choose what is best for me, not have it chosen for me.

(October 26, 2011 at 8:09 pm)Shell B Wrote: No, I do not feel I should obey laws that I disagree with. However, some of them I refrain from breaking because the punishment isn't worth it. Nonetheless, I have broken a great deal of laws in my life, though I do not steal or hurt people.

So, then should a murderer be free to murder because he disagrees that killing is wrong?

(October 26, 2011 at 8:09 pm)Shell B Wrote: No one created me. Either way, I still want to choose what is best for me, not have it chosen for me.

If God knows you better than you know yourself, wouldn't you agree that He knows what is best for you?

Why would I be wrong about nearly everything because god existed? The things that lead me to tell you that I wouldn't bend the knee are the things in your holy book, not the things which contradict it.

Lets be sure we're on the same page here. Your god is a monster, by his own supposed words and actions. I don't kneel to that, I'd rather shoot at it, even if I cant win.

A murderer is free to murder. That is why it happens all the time. The question you are trying to ask is whether he should be punished for it, which is not relevant to this conversation. This conversation is dealing with whether he should have the choice to do it to begin with. The answer to that question is yes and not only because it is impossible to stop all crime.

Obviously not, lucent. My life is evidence of that. I know what is best for me. I do not always get it, but I work hard at it. I am the one doing the work here. If god knew what was good for me, he would make sure I get it, which he doesn't. No, if he did exist, according to your book, he would not only make my life more difficult than necessary, but also take away everything I love in life once I hit heaven, assuming he didn't torture me for all of eternity.

(October 26, 2011 at 8:20 pm)Shell B Wrote: A murderer is free to murder. That is why it happens all the time. The question you are trying to ask is whether he should be punished for it, which is not relevant to this conversation. This conversation is dealing with whether he should have the choice to do it to begin with. The answer to that question is yes and not only because it is impossible to stop all crime.

You lost the thread of the conversation. You asked me to prove that someone deserved to be punished with hell. I posted the law. You said that breaking the law shouldn't always lead to punishment, because some laws are foolish. Your criterion for which laws you could break were the laws you disagree with.

"No, I do not feel I should obey laws that I disagree with."

I gave the example that by that logic, a murderer would be morally justified because he thought the law against killing was wrong. IE, your standard for moral behavior is absurd.

A murderer should be punished for murdering, regardless of whether he agrees with it or not. Likewise, you should be punished for breakings Gods laws whether you agree with them or not.

(October 26, 2011 at 8:20 pm)Shell B Wrote: Obviously not, lucent. My life is evidence of that. I know what is best for me. I do not always get it, but I work hard at it. I am the one doing the work here. If god knew what was good for me, he would make sure I get it, which he doesn't. No, if he did exist, according to your book, he would not only make my life more difficult than necessary, but also take away everything I love in life once I hit heaven, assuming he didn't torture me for all of eternity.

Your life is evidence that you know what is best because you work hard for want you want and God doesn't give you what you want? The entire point is that God would know better than you would, by definition. You obviously don't have superior knowledge to an omnipotent being, do you?

Now God doesn't give you what you want, He gives you what you need. Do you give a little kid everything he wants? Obviously not, because he doesn't know anything and many of the things he wants are bad for him. What makes you any different than that little kid without Gods help?

You also assume that you're doing all the work. Since you believe everything is random, you see the story of your life as a series of fortunate (or unfortunate) accidents, and the good things you got were based on your work. Not so.

James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change

What I found out when I converted from agnosticism was that this verse is true. God is taking care of you whether you love Him or not. Atheists don't understand that God personally intervenes in their lives all the time, but you are just interpreting his intervention as coincidence or happenstance. I've found out there is no such thing as either. So all that atheists are doing is biting the hand that feeds them.

Except that the authority of our laws regarding murder are well established. Your can't even establish that your god exists. Laws that appeal to a fairy for authority aren't worth considering.

(October 26, 2011 at 8:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why would I be wrong about nearly everything because god existed? The things that lead me to tell you that I wouldn't bend the knee are the things in your holy book, not the things which contradict it.

Lets be sure we're on the same page here. Your god is a monster, by his own supposed words and actions. I don't kneel to that, I'd rather shoot at it, even if I cant win.

Your interpretation of the bible is about the most biased thing I've ever heard of. Your mindset, worldview, and negative predispositions towards it color everything you know about it. You don't think you might look at it a little differently if you realized it was true? The problem is that you're not seeing both sides of the argument. You just stay on your side and spray paint graffiti on the wall.

I don't think I'm getting through to you here Lucent. The things that your god is said to have done would be unforgiveable if they were true. They wouldn't magically become okay just because he dropped by my house to prove that he existed. If he wore a name tag, and I knew that he wasn't some delusional, I would open fire.

(October 26, 2011 at 10:59 pm)lucent Wrote: You lost the thread of the conversation.

No, I did not.

Quote:You asked me to prove that someone deserved to be punished with hell. I posted the law.

The law is not proof that someone deserves punishing. It is proof that the moral majority believe it deserves punishing. Besides, you asked me if a murderer should be free to murder, which is inline with this conversation and brought it to the point we are now, which is several posts ahead of the proof of deserving punishment post.

Quote:You said that breaking the law shouldn't always lead to punishment, because some laws are foolish. Your criterion for which laws you could break were the laws you disagree with.

Indeed. I would go on to add that the circumstances should have something to do with it as well. This is part of the reason we have courts -- not a single judge, jury and executioner.

Quote:I gave the example that by that logic, a murderer would be morally justified because he thought the law against killing was wrong.

We are not talking about moral justifications. We are talking about freewill. Justification or not, he will be punished, as would I have been, had I been caught. That being said, I do believe most murder is inherently wrong. Either way, I am free to do it, if I so choose. Repercussions come after the fact.

Quote:IE, your standard for moral behavior is absurd.

Um, you are equating laws with morals and legal behavior with moral behavior. Your inability to follow a conversation is absurd. You brought law into it. It shouldn't be that hard for you to keep up.

Quote:A murderer should be punished for murdering, regardless of whether he agrees with it or not. Likewise, you should be punished for breakings Gods laws whether you agree with them or not.

Oh, really? A murderer being punished for murdering someone is a little different than me burning in hell for all of eternity for lust or some other such stupid bullshit. Besides, I do not disagree with god's laws so much as I disagree with the laws your holy goatherders made up and called god's laws. Lucky for me, the bible also says a little something about judging people. See you in hell, bitch.

Quote:Your life is evidence that you know what is best because you work hard for want you want and God doesn't give you what you want?

Misinterpret much? I. AM. AN. ATHEIST. There is no god to give me what I want. I get it. I work for it. I know what I want. If god knew better than me and loved me to death the way you thumpers think he does, a whole lot of shit would turn out awesome for me, despite me never knowing I needed it. That has yet to happen.

Quote:The entire point is that God would know better than you would, by definition. You obviously don't have superior knowledge to an omnipotent being, do you?

Superior knowledge about myself? Yes. Just because something is omnipotent, doesn't mean it gives a shit about my day to day life. Try not to be so ridiculous. The omnipotent being is your imagination. You want to think you are right for one of two reasons. 1. To know you haven't wasted all of this time abiding by laws that do not exist. 2. So you can feel superior to people who do not believe as you do and tell them they are going to be punished. It is interesting that, while most atheists find your viewpoint insulting, they do not make up eternities of torment to amuse themselves with. Sadistic much?

Quote:Now God doesn't give you what you want, He gives you what you need.

Really? I could use a heart that functions properly. Looks like god doesn't care.

Quote:Do you give a little kid everything he wants? Obviously not, because he doesn't know anything

A. I am not a little kid. B. Kids do know things. Do you really treat all children like they don't know anything?

Quote:What makes you any different than that little kid without Gods help?

Knowledge, experience and the ability to tell the difference between a fear mongering fairy tale and real life.

Quote:You also assume that you're doing all the work.

Because I am.

Quote:Since you believe everything is random, you see the story of your life as a series of fortunate (or unfortunate) accidents, and the good things you got were based on your work. Not so.

What? I do not believe my life is a series of accidents, you blankety blank. I see everything as the result of my activity, inactivity or a little thing called inevitability. If there were a god to fucking blame, I would be doing it. Trust me. I would shit on every Bible I ever saw if I believed in god. I would desecrate churches and swear at nuns. I am not joking.

Quote:James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change

Oh, goodie. Bible verses. Just what we do not have enough of around here. Hint: I do not give a fuck what a centuries old work of fiction says unless it is interesting, which your Bible is not.

Quote:What I found out when I converted from agnosticism was that this verse is true. God is taking care of you whether you love Him or not. Atheists don't understand that God personally intervenes in their lives all the time, but you are just interpreting his intervention as coincidence or happenstance. I've found out there is no such thing as either. So all that atheists are doing is biting the hand that feeds them.

Ah, yes, you found something out that was convenient for you without having any explanation or proof of this discovery. *yawn* I heard that one before.

Do me a favor, stop telling me what you think god does and stick to the topic, which is abstract, not literal, so that shouldn't be so difficult.

(October 26, 2011 at 11:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't think I'm getting through to you here Lucent. The things that your god is said to have done would be unforgiveable if they were true. They wouldn't magically become okay just because he dropped by my house to prove that he existed. If he wore a name tag, and I knew that he wasn't some delusional, I would open fire.

God has nothing to be forgiven for. He is sovereign over His creation. 150k people die every day, and God allowed all of those deaths to happen. Whether He judged a city for its wickedness, or whether He took someone out of the world when they're 80, no one dies before their time. In every case, He decides the time. There is no difference between what you say is unforgivable and what happens every day.