(October 28, 2011 at 6:27 am)lucent Wrote: Abortions are not Gods work. If you don't want to engage and instead are only interested in making your little statements, that's up to you. Abortions are mans work, which God allows because of free will.

God is the universes biggest abortioner, given the number of miscarriages worldwide every day, despite the innocent suffering of the mother to be. According to theology he decides to let them happen, even though the free will of the mother-to-be would be to go through with the pregnancy.

Of course you could construct a logical argument which excused god from the problem of evil and innocent suffering, but can you solve the problem inductively as well as deductively and still remain morally serious? What is more likely that there is no god and these events are tragic and part of our natural world, or that god doesn't prevent innocent suffering becuase he moves in mysterious ways /wants to bring the most people to his side and suffering is a way to achieve/we can't know his mind/its his masterplan [insert here phrase you feel most comfortable with]

(October 28, 2011 at 6:45 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 6:27 am)lucent Wrote: Let's put it this way. If someone goes to stab you, God could cause that knife to deflect off your chest. He could turn it into a banana. However, if He did that, free will would not exist. So nothing is happening outside His control, but He permits His creatures to act in ways that defy His authority.

So what you said earlier about no-one dying until god decides they should is not true then?

Nothing happens unless God allows it to happen..allowing it obviously means God decided it should happen. I am not sure how many different ways I can tell you the same thing.

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(October 28, 2011 at 6:47 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote: God is the universes biggest abortioner, given the number of miscarriages worldwide every day, despite the innocent suffering of the mother to be. According to theology he decides to let them happen, even though the free will of the mother-to-be would be to go through with the pregnancy.

So what you're saying is that God should prevent all suffering. Which means that He should prevent us from any action that might cause another suffering, which means we are nothing more than robots forced to do Gods will.

(October 28, 2011 at 6:47 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote: Of course you could construct a logical argument which excused god from the problem of evil and innocent suffering, but can you solve the problem inductively as well as deductively and still remain morally serious? What is more likely that there is no god and these events are tragic and part of our natural world, or that god doesn't prevent innocent suffering becuase he moves in mysterious ways /wants to bring the most people to his side and suffering is a way to achieve/we can't know his mind/its his masterplan [insert here phrase you feel most comfortable with]

The problem of evil is solved by the fact that God allows His creatures free will, because creatures that are significantly free can have meaningful relationships with God. Creatures that are not significantly free are forced into doing Gods will. The former is preferable to the latter.

(October 28, 2011 at 6:55 am)lucent Wrote: Nothing happens unless God allows it to happen..allowing it obviously means God decided it should happen. I am not sure how many different ways I can tell you the same thing

So god decides that abortions should happen then?

(October 28, 2011 at 7:05 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 6:55 am)lucent Wrote: Nothing happens unless God allows it to happen..allowing it obviously means God decided it should happen. I am not sure how many different ways I can tell you the same thing

So god decides that abortions should happen then?

That He allows them to happen doesn't mean He wants them to happen. It only means that He allows for the free will decisions of the people involved in making them happen.

(October 28, 2011 at 7:09 am)lucent Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 7:05 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 6:55 am)lucent Wrote: Nothing happens unless God allows it to happen..allowing it obviously means God decided it should happen. I am not sure how many different ways I can tell you the same thing

So god decides that abortions should happen then?

That He allows them to happen doesn't mean He wants them to happen. It only means that He allows for the free will decisions of the people involved in making them happen.

Really?? But you state quite emphatically that NOTHING happens unless your deity says so..... You are very confusing mate

Christian thought process:
-When something good happens: goddidit
-When something bad happens: Its god's plan

tut tut!

How far off the OP this is, I can't even find my last post in this thread. Perhaps I'm just too busy to keep up anymore. I thought we were discussing free will and heaven?

My thought process:
-When something good happens: something good happens
-When something bad happens: something bad happens

That's kind of how a causal universe system works right. cause -> effect --> cause ad nauseum.

Yeah lucent did you answer that? what changes in heaven do we still have free will or are we "mindless robots"?

(October 28, 2011 at 7:26 am)tackattack Wrote: How far off the OP this is, I can't even find my last post in this thread. Perhaps I'm just too busy to keep up anymore. I thought we were discussing free will and heaven?

My thought process:
-When something good happens: something good happens
-When something bad happens: something bad happens

That's kind of how a causal universe system works right. cause -> effect --> cause ad nauseum.

Mighty Tack!! How are ya mate??

Yeah basically your summation gets my vote to...others have some rather exotic ideas??

(October 28, 2011 at 7:09 am)lucent Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 7:05 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 6:55 am)lucent Wrote: Nothing happens unless God allows it to happen..allowing it obviously means God decided it should happen. I am not sure how many different ways I can tell you the same thing

So god decides that abortions should happen then?

That He allows them to happen doesn't mean He wants them to happen. It only means that He allows for the free will decisions of the people involved in making them happen.

No,no,no, you have specifically stated that nothing happens unless god decides it should happen.
Now you're saying that things happen even though god doesn't want them to.

Two completely contradictory statements.

I'm coming to the conclusion you don't know what you mean.