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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 5:21 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2020 at 6:58 pm by John 6IX Breezy.)
(August 21, 2020 at 4:57 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: you don't like the way I describe it
Correct; your description is semantically and pragmatically incompatible with mine; the legal system doesn't recognize our descriptions as portraying the same event; and as such your description doesn't represent my cult's beliefs.
It shouldn't be a problem to make your case using my description. Plenty of paramedics still get sued (unsuccessfully perhaps) even after a patient signs a refusal form, so you're in good company for thinking its wrong to respect consent. Surely there's plenty to criticize in the narrative that God sacrificed himself for everyone, opened wide the gates of heaven, and people are free to refuse salvation. You can even try to convince me that my interpretation of Scripture is wrong. But its incoherent to argue that our descriptions are the same.
If you refuse my wedding invitation, I'm not the one leaving you out.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 5:43 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2020 at 5:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
My description is factually identical to yours - my moral assessment is different from yours. Your legal musings are irrelevant - I have no legal objections. If god wrote the laws, or the laws amounted to whatever god did - those would be the laws, and I would still have the same objection. As I keep saying, assuming that this is how it all works is the source of my objection - not an answer to my objection.
I'll wait until you deign to afford others what you claim for yourself.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 6:00 pm
(August 21, 2020 at 5:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: My description is factually identical to yours - my moral assessment is different from yours.
I do not see our descriptions as factually identical; nor have I made any moral assessments. We are at an impasse, so I will respectfully conclude the conversation.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 8:20 pm
(August 20, 2020 at 11:30 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (August 20, 2020 at 11:17 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: I see no reason why it HAS to be false either, and it's a much more plausible explanation than the universe being created ex nihilo by an invisible man in the sky.
How are you measuring the plausibility between the two explanations, if you don't mind me asking?
Show me some credible evidence for the existence of your God and I'll let you know. Describe the mechanism by which he created the universe ex nihilo. Modern cosmologists have formulated rational models for the formation of the universe based upon known, demonstrable evidence. I've yet to see ANY rational evidence for the universe being created.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 10:00 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2020 at 11:27 pm by John 6IX Breezy.)
(August 21, 2020 at 8:20 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: I've yet to see ANY rational evidence for the universe being created.
Evidence is underdetermistic and theory-dependent; it derives it's meaning from the theory you observe with. Sunrise and sunset, for example, are both evidence for a geocentric and heliocentric universe.
The question to ask isn't what's the evidence for one or the other, but what observation tells the two apart? For example, the parallax effect.
Don't ask for evidence that the universe was created, even an apple on a tree is consistent with a created universe. Instead, look for observations that can distinguish a created universe from a non-created universe.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 10:59 pm
Yes, by all means, look for that, and when you find it, get back to us.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 11:56 pm
(This post was last modified: August 22, 2020 at 12:01 am by Silver.)
Every believer thinks his interpretation of god is special and most true, while also ironically thinking the more stable, logical interpretation of the non-believer is false.
When it comes to certain realistic understandings, for example that the world operates as though there is no creator in existence while theists illogically see the creator in the mere fact of a tree existing, just goes to show that it stops being a matter of opinion when the theist performs those mental gymnastics for the fantasy to persist instead of simply accepting the reality of god not existing.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 22, 2020 at 3:08 am
god hates a happy ending.
Apparently, this universe only has room for one jerk off.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 22, 2020 at 7:54 am
(This post was last modified: August 22, 2020 at 8:29 am by John 6IX Breezy.)
(August 21, 2020 at 11:56 pm)Eleven Wrote: Every believer thinks his interpretation of god is special and most true, while also ironically thinking the more stable, logical interpretation of the non-believer is false.
Everything is interpretation; that is the nature of information as it interacts with the human brain.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 22, 2020 at 8:10 am
(This post was last modified: August 22, 2020 at 8:13 am by Gwaithmir.)
(August 21, 2020 at 10:00 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (August 21, 2020 at 8:20 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: I've yet to see ANY rational evidence for the universe being created.
Evidence is underdetermistic and theory-dependent; it derives it's meaning from the theory you observe with. Sunrise and sunset, for example, are both evidence for a geocentric and heliocentric universe.
The question to ask isn't what's the evidence for one or the other, but what observation tells the two apart? For example, the parallax effect.
Don't ask for evidence that the universe was created, even an apple on a tree is consistent with a created universe. Instead, look for observations that can distinguish a created universe from a non-created universe.
We know by empirical observations that the earth resides in a heliocentric system and that apples are not created; they grow on trees. In my youth, I made an honest search for God and creation, and came up empty, which is why I'm an atheist today. I suggest you stop obfuscating. If you have a case for God's existence and creation--- make it!
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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