Um no, ultimately race, ethnic, culture, geography, nationality, religion, politics, economics are still all nothing more than artificial excuses for human tribalism to gain control over resources.

It still remains no matter where anyone is born in the world in human history, we still all die and we are all still the same species.

Of that entire list, only race is artifice.

A lesson in how the right and left, politically at odds, have been trained to talk and think like each other.

A leftwinger hears that, believes it, and maybe decides that we should stop acting on imaginary x's. -que better world propaganda.
A rightwinger hears it and wonders why they're getting shit for acting on one imaginary x since all the x's are imaginary. -que liberal hypocrisy propaganda.

Both ideas, both wrong, both dangerous, are informed by the same misapprehension.

A race would be a species, in parlance. There's only one human species, true. An ethnicity or culture or nationality would be a cultivar. There are endless cultivars. The thing that we call a race, would be a variation within a cultivar. There are endless variations within the endless cultivars of a single race.

(September 2, 2020 at 1:02 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Of that entire list, only race is artifice.

(a lesson in how the right and left, politically at odds, have been trained to talk and think like each other)

Um no, it really is all artificial. 

Evolution drives our species to group, and because of that grouping we divide and compete for resources. You can have Jews who agree with Bibi in Israel and Jews in America who don't agree with him. You can have Muslims in Iran and Saudi Arabia who hate America and Muslims in America who hate their leaders. You can have Buddhists in Tibet who don't agree with China and Chinese Buddhists who don't agree with Japan's Buddhists. 

"Ethnic and culture" are as artificial as race and religion. The only real thing I do agree with is all those labels ARE certainly used by humans to pretend we are not the same species.

Evolution is not artificial. If your objection to my comments proceeds -in any way- from evolutionary theory, it's not artificial.

This is the fractured left in full display. How are you supposed to celebrate all variations and cultivars as natural when you believe that they're artificial?

Jews in isreal are one ethnicity
jews in america - another.

-those are called cohorts, also not artificial.

There's a real difference that isn't an effect of artifice - or your own comments can't even be true. Think it through, brian.

(September 2, 2020 at 12:58 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Um  no, ultimately race, ethnic, culture, geography, nationality, religion, politics,  economics are still all nothing more than artificial excuses for human tribalism to gain control over resources.

It still remains no matter where anyone is born in the world in human history, we still all die and we are all still the same species.

Really? Geography is artificial? Are mountains 3D printed at Geography Backwards ‘R’ Us?

Boru

(September 2, 2020 at 12:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Ethnicity refers to the common social, national, or cultural traditions.  We all have one, it's real.

Race refers to the imaginary concept of difference based on pigmentation.  The commotion, is about race.

I think the concept that race is based mainly on pigmentation Is to credit racism with more consistency than it has, and downplay the effects of the main Underlying driver, which is The bestial impulse to find any easily Distinguished out group that can’t push back strongly in daily life to abuse to relieve the threatening sense of own inadequacy or Primitive insecurity.

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(September 2, 2020 at 1:02 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Of that entire list, only race is artifice.

A lesson in how the right and left, politically at odds, have been trained to talk and think like each other.

A leftwinger hears that, believes it, and maybe decides that we should stop acting on imaginary x's.  -que better world propaganda.
A rightwinger hears it and wonders why they're getting shit for acting on one imaginary x since all the x's are imaginary. -que liberal hypocrisy propaganda.

Both ideas, both wrong, both dangerous, are informed by the same misapprehension.

A race would be a species, in parlance.  There's only one human species, true.  An ethnicity or culture or nationality would be a cultivar.  There are endless cultivars.  The thing that we call a race, would be a variation within a cultivar.  There are endless variations within the endless cultivars of a single race.

When a right winger sees a person struggling in an undertow off a beach, he would first say that person deserved to drown.  When that becomes unacceptable, he would privately rail against the unacceptability, perhaps over dinner with tucker Carlson.  But publicly he would say it must be the person’s own fault because people sitting on the beach evidently aren’t drowning.   When that too becomes unacceptable, he would rail against the double Imposition in private (not so private if trump is president), but publicly he would say all people deserve saving from drowning so no life saving effort focused Particularly on the person actually drowning is warranted.

His main goal is really to ensure no fee Is charged To him for his use of the beach so a life guard might be hired that could have benefited someone else, particularly if the first person likely to benefit might vote against his plan to enclose more public land during the next town hall meeting.   His secondary goal is to regain social acceptability for laughing at the drowning person.

It's something to think about...that even if a persn lookied exactly the same as you if you, by any metric of pigmentation, peopl would still find ways to imagine that they looked different.

You're right. I afford race more credence than it deserves even as I call it imaginary - but that's not a mistake, I do that on purpose. There can be no more damning assessment of an ideology than one which assumes all of the relevant trivia is true, and shows why the conclusion would be false even if so.

That's a doa idea. RACE IS DOA. It's not a thing, it's not real - but that doesn't mean that the things we -thought- were race based aren't real. We do have cultural differences. Deferring again, to your comments, those very real differences are why the irish and polish weren't white, even though they had matched the pigmentation criteria and shown pigmentation racism to be inconsistent with it's own metrics.

Baby steps. We're dealing with people who think that race is real and/or people who think that every other difference is imaginary because race is imaginary.

(September 2, 2020 at 1:11 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Evolution is not artificial.  If your objection to my comments proceeds -in any way- from evolutionary theory, it's not artificial.

This is the fractured left in full display.  How are you supposed to celebrate all variations and cultivars as natural when you believe that they're artificial?

Jews in isreal are one ethnicity
jews in america - another.

-those are called cohorts, also not artificial.

There's a real difference that isn't an effect of artifice - or your own comments can't even be true.  Think it through, brian.

Um no, Jewish is not a even an ethnicity. No nation no culture or race are.

If you are going to agree, and rightfully so, that our entire species originated out of Africa, that still means what humans commonly point to, RESPECTIVELY , as far as pointing to social norms handed down to following generations, still has never prevented migration and mixing over time. There is NOTHING original about our species. 

Even in the west, we have migrants whom have skin tones and facial features from the Arab, Asian, Indian, African world, whom migrate to the west, whose children will never have the same experience as if they stayed in their parent's country of origin. Their skin tone and facial features as kids, sure, will look similar to their ancestors, but they WILL NOT grow up the same way as if their parents never left.

It is possible for example for someone to be a former Christian, but it is also possible for someone to be a former Muslim, or former Buddhist, or former Hindu. And it is ALSO possible for someone to be a former Jew. Just read "God No" By Penn Jillette in which he describes meeting a fan after a show, and taking the former Jew out to a all night diner and the former Jew eating a bacon Cheeseburger.

There WERE polytheists occupying Mesopotamia long before Jews Christians or Muslims existed.

(September 2, 2020 at 1:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 2, 2020 at 1:11 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Evolution is not artificial.  If your objection to my comments proceeds -in any way- from evolutionary theory, it's not artificial.

This is the fractured left in full display.  How are you supposed to celebrate all variations and cultivars as natural when you believe that they're artificial?

Jews in isreal are one ethnicity
jews in america - another.

-those are called cohorts, also not artificial.

There's a real difference that isn't an effect of artifice - or your own comments can't even be true.  Think it through, brian.

Um no, Jewish is not a even an ethnicity. No nation no culture or race are.

If you are going to agree, and rightfully so, that our entire species originated out of Africa, that still means what humans commonly point to, RESPECTIVELY , as far as pointing to social norms handed down to following generations, still has never prevented migration and mixing over time. There is NOTHING original about our species. 

Even in the west, we have migrants whom have skin tones and facial features from the Arab, Asian, Indian, African world, whom migrate to the west, whose children will never have the same experience as if they stayed in their parent's country of origin. Their skin tone and facial features as kids, sure, will look similar to their ancestors, but they WILL NOT grow up the same way as if their parents never left.

It is possible for example for someone to be a former Christian, but it is also possible for someone to be a former Muslim, or former Buddhist, or former Hindu. And it is ALSO possible for someone to be a former Jew. Just read "God No" By Penn Jillette in which he describes meeting a fan after a show, and taking the former Jew out to a all night diner and the former Jew eating a bacon Cheeseburger.

There WERE polytheists occupying Mesopotamia long before Jews Christians or Muslims existed.

Isreal is a nation that really exists ( as much as it pisses off islamists ) .  That being a fact, other cultural, national, nd social facts follow.

A former x™ still has the ethnicity of that x.

A former jew™, in ethno-political parlance, is simply someone who disagrees with the supremacist rhetoric of the culture - which is also real - and not artifice. If it's even possible to be a former jew™ or a former white™ - then the case for ethnic difference as fact misapprehended-as-racial-divergence has been made. Think it through. Adding polytheists to the mix doesn't change that fact.