(November 12, 2020 at 12:24 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(November 12, 2020 at 12:19 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: . . . . .

I have two questions for you Miles:

1) Has God ever caused suffering for someone who, not having free will, committed sin?

2) If you were wrong in your thinking about God, how would you discover and determine that you were wrong?

1) Of course.

2) Well, I've staked my life on being right about God, so if I'm wrong, then I will pay for it with my life.

You'll pay with your life either way. None of us get out of here breathing.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:21 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Imagine that I set up a test of prayer, in a way that isn't known to the participants.  Their own hearts may or not be pure, but it isn't dependent on me doing the test.  As long as some of them have a pure heart, prayer must have an effect or the hypothesis of prayer is false.

Now, if God realizes that I'm performing a test, and ignores the prayers of people with honest hearts, what sort of god is that?

Your scenario hinges on too many what ifs. Who says God will allow you to set up the test in the first place, or if He does, who says He will give you a single participant with a sincere heart? He is, after all, in full control of your actions and thus in control of the experiment itself.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:21 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: What is more likely -- that God purposefully acts to make sure there is no evidence of His actions, or that there is no evidence because no such actions have taken place?

I don't think you thought this one through. How could you ever know which? Doesn't matter what is likely, you're attempting an unprovable experiment.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:21 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Everyone that believes in an active God has an theory for how God works in the world.  But almost none bother to check if their theory is already invalidated by the existing evidence.  Those that realize that prayer or faith or good-living doesn't stop tragedy come up with all sorts of excuses like "God works in mysterious ways".

That's why I find that most zealots tend to be young or new believers.  Those who have had a life of experience have evidence that good and bad happens to everyone regardless of faith or goodness.

Well, it might seem that good or bad happens to everyone regardless of faith, but how do you know that's the case? How do you know that people you think have faith actually have faith? I can tell you that nominal Christendom is bursting at the seams with unbelievers who are deceived into thinking they have a relationship with God when they don't. In fact, there are very, very few people in the world today with genuine faith. You have to enter through the narrow gate - few find it.

I can't exactly blame anyone for being discouraged or disenfranchised from Christianity since there are so few genuine Christians. There is a lot of hypocrisy and ignorance going on. But anyone genuinely penitent will find God, or He is a liar. People don't find Him because they aren't genuinely penitent.

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(November 12, 2020 at 12:31 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You'll pay with your life either way.  None of us get out of here breathing.

True, but I've gone through much suffering seeking the Lord. I have, in fact, already lost my life, so at least from your perspective, I am already the loser.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:38 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: Well, it might seem that good or bad happens to everyone regardless of faith, but how do you know that's the case?

By reference to facts of the matter.  

Quote:How do you know that people you think have faith actually have faith?

I suspect that a great many do not by reference to facts of the matter of them.

Quote:I can't exactly blame anyone for being discouraged or disenfranchised from Christianity since there are so few genuine Christians. There is a lot of hypocrisy and ignorance going on. But anyone genuine penitent will find God, or He is a liar. People don't find Him because they aren't genuinely penitent.

Do you think that you're among the few true christians, or the majority disingenuous?  Do you think that your own self assessment (either way) is similar to others perceptions of you, by reference to the facts of the matter of you? Facts like being a liar, for example?

Or, if you prefer, maybe these ultimatums you keep delivering to the divine are nonsense? Genuine pentitents will find your god or god is a liar? Bullshit. Maybe someone lied to you about people or about god - your mind immediately drifts to god the liar, though. Maybe you're the someone, lying now, to everyone here.

Some Fucking Christian.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do you think that you're among the few true christians, or the majority disingenuous?  Do you think that your own self assessment (either way) is similar to others perceptions of you, by reference to the facts of the matter of you? Facts like being a liar, for example?

Well, yes, I think so. I don't know so, as no one can, but if I didn't believe I were one of the few I wouldn't speak as I do, now would I? And I've already said that the majority are disingenuous.

My assessment of myself is of course different from how others will assess me, depending on where they're at faith-wise. Those who are of God will hear me; those who are not will not. As the Scriptures say, "We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception." (1 John 4:6)

I don't know what you mean by "by reference to the facts of the matter to you?"

I think that it's more likely that jesus never knew you.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Genuine pentitents will find your god or god is a liar?  Bullshit.  Maybe someone lied to you about people or about god - your mind immediately drifts to god the liar, though.  Maybe you're the someone, lying now, to everyone here.

I could by lying, of course that's a possibility. But you would know that I'm not if God were to give you to know it...that's the only way to know.

"You will seek Me and find Me, when you seek Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)

According to the Scriptures, it is most certainly not bullshit.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:38 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: I can't exactly blame anyone for being discouraged or disenfranchised from Christianity since there are so few genuine Christians. There is a lot of hypocrisy and ignorance going on. But anyone genuinely penitent will find God, or He is a liar. People don't find Him because they aren't genuinely penitent.

Says the zealot who believes only he and those who think like him have Truth.

I am in favor of everyone having their own "meaning-making myth".  Everyone needs to come to terms with mortality, and find happiness and purpose in life.

I'm not in favor of everyone having their own claims to "Truth".  There are so few genuine Christians?  You are just part of another Christian splinter group, every one declaring the others as heretics.  None can prove their claims, because there is no evidence of gods at all.

If you lived in India, you would probably be a Hindu zealot right now.

(November 12, 2020 at 12:54 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I think that it's more likely that jesus never knew you.

It's certainly a possibility.

Since we cant get a decent convo out of this nutter, Imma run with you Skep. I disagree about everyone having their own meaning-making myth. We see that this nutballs meaning making myth includes the idea that people can be morally responsible for things they don't have any choice in, for things they don't control, even if they are moral incompetents.

We know how that played out in history and the present. If having their own meaning making myths mean that, then it's a hard pass.