Hello everyone,

I'm a newbie and I searched term 'exorcism' and old thread poped out, I had something to say but deicide to open a new thred.

I was long time a Catholic believer and I know pretty well all Catholic teachings, rituals and folklore beliefs, it is kinda more complex than other religions, for eamples Protestantism or some other Bible believing Christians.

Catholic faith is not based on Bible alone, but on Church tradition and early Church fathers from the beginning. Catholic Church is pretty progressive and open minded, for example, pope John Paul II accepted a theory of evolution, and many clergy and theologians from Catholic field accept evolution and they have no problem with that. Catholic church accepted Big Bang theory, well, that is kinda ironic, because idea of universe that spreading itself came from Belgium priest George Lemaitre. Well, this is part of some other thread, but I have to write it down before I jump into exorcism and demonic possession.

I was readed a lot about exorcism and possession, from book by official Vatican exorcist father Amorth to others like book The Rite by Matt Baglio, which is pretty journalistic and honest and scientific look at possession. Gabrielle Amorth books are not scientific, it is only description of many exorcism events as it is expected from the priest.

I was many time witnessing 'possessions' and first time I was shocked. Already I previously read was in front of my eyes and ears, and this is not fake. I was there.

So at Catholic Holy Mass, one girl who is suppossedly possessed, were not showing any signs of possession. She was a quiet girl, not she seemed like she is deeply mentaly ill. When priest came with Holy Cross she started to screaming and even while couple of strong guys hold, her she was so strong that she dropped all of them to the floor, even heavily benches were moved. This was extreme strength from tiny little pale girl, maybe in early 20's. Suddenly, people started to pray and she was started to spitting all over and cursing, her eyes were rolling and her voice were more male sounded, and she was talking in some strange language, and she growling like singer in death metal band. After some prayer by the priest and other, manifestation began to fade out. Later she was exhausted and in cry. She was not the same person when she was possessed, before and after.

So, I was there, and this is not only time. I was there. I was not witnessing exorcism because that ritual must be performed in secret, but my friend was there who was there to hold possessed person and he saw many manifestation that gived me chillin in the bones.

In many parishes and Chruches in Croatia there is many charismatic priest and they performing extended Holy Mass for spiritual revival for people of faith and people who are not into faith but they opened to experience something.

In Međugorje (google it if someone is interested) near Croatia border, where suppossedly Virgin Mary appeared a lot of time to kids in beginning of 1980's, you can see a lot of pilgrims, and many testimony of healings, miracles and demonic possession manifestations. Near hill of Apparition, some people were screaming suddenly. I have a video of that, and if someone interested I can forward them.

Okay, question for atheist. I didn't see any rebuttal of demonic possessions on the internet, even well known skeptic Steven Novella fall shortly to his explanation of demonic activities.

My question is this to atheist or skeptic, and this is not people faking, I was there:

- how can some girl with poor education know Latin or Hebrew phrases???

- if this is some kind of weird mental illness, how come that girl who is possessed only have this manifestations in Church during prayer time??? This is what you exactly expect if girl were possessed?

- how can you explain big aversion to Holy water or Holy cross or other sacred things from people who are possessed supposedly?

- how can you explain enormous strength from thin teeny girl? Strength bigger than six adults people?

- if all those is only some kind of mental seizure or uknown mental illness, would you expect to be happen in big grocery stores, supermarkets and other places with lot of people that can trigger seizures and that never happens? Only in Church? Explain that.


I was contemplating a lot and searched a lot but didn't see many argument that this is all weird placebo thing that science need to investigate. Some priests even asking for possessed people evaluation from doctors and they had it. So doctors cannot find nothing that would lead to disorder. Isn't that what you expected if person were possessed. Because possession is a spiritual thing of spiritual realm. It make sense to me.

Can someone explain this phenomena?

P.S. Apology for making gramatical errors (english is not my native language).

- how can some girl with poor education know Latin or Hebrew phrases???

Poor education doesn't have a lot to do with it. Most people are familiar with phrases like 'caveat emptor' or 'oy gevalt'. But how do you know she was speaking Latin or Hebrew. Is it possible she was making noises that simply sound like Latin or Hebrew?


- if this is some kind of weird mental illness, how come that girl who is possessed only have this manifestations in Church during prayer time??? This is what you exactly expect if girl were possessed?

This is also what you'd expect if the girl were religiously indoctrinated to believe that she was possessed.

- how can you explain big aversion to Holy water or Holy cross or other sacred things from people who are possessed supposedly?

More religious indoctrination. If a person is possessed, they might even be averse to religious symbols that they don't know are religious symbols.

- how can you explain enormous strength from thin teeny girl? Strength bigger than six adults people?

It's called 'hysterical strength', and isn't that uncommon. There are cases of people lifting very heavy rubble or a car to free a trapped person.

- if all those is only some kind of mental seizure or uknown mental illness, would you expect to be happen in big grocery stores, supermarkets and other places with lot of people that can trigger seizures and that never happens? Only in Church? Explain that.

More indoctrination. If person believes they are possessed, it is more, not less, likely to manifest itself in a religious setting. Supermarkets are not known for being triggers of religious ecstasy (unless you run across a 2-for-1 deal on strip steak, then you'll see Jesus).

Boru

Well, those arguments are very shallow and simplified. It's all about being indoctrinated?Really? In Europe, especially in Croatia, there is almost no Christian fundamentalists
or Bible believing Christians.

I don't believe possessed teenage girl or adult man or woman are that indoctrinated. I was also deep into Catholic faith, reading about everything, from saints, miracles and theology and this stuff. I was indoctrinated from atheistic point of view into catholic religion. How than I didn't screaming? I was also listened to heavy metal music in that time.

You assuming that being into religion is what making some people to behave like possession? Why then all possession manifestations are similar? Why then someone who is believing he is possessed aren't screaming for help like in panic attacks? It is very obvious that these people (whether they are possessed or not) are suffering. I've been there are it is very painful to watch. I know that this people been to doctor or psychaitrist and that they are sent to priest or Catholic mass for spiritual healing.

How can you explain that? You know that so called possessed people went to doctor and in some cases they went to Catholic mass? Is doctor really that dumb and he doesnt know all this objection you posted?

Well, you can ask almost any practicing Catholic who is active in Church and he will tell you almost same as I.

I was there, looking at pale thin girl, who suddenly started to spit and speak in laungage that seems very weird to me, it is not english and it is not just random words (well maybe it is) and it sounds like was there many other voices (?) or they sound like male from female throat? Is this just a placebo effect? It is very hard to believe that. And is hard to believe that parents indoctrinated their child into religion so much that they make a monster alike from their child. Well, it is that the case than it seems to me like they (the children) were in some sort of religious cult from vulnerable early age. That is not true. It doesn't make sense and it's far fetched.

I know male adult who had same possession manifestations in Međugorje sanctuary and he was not into faith of any kind, I don't know him personally, but I think he was pretty ordinary. I don't believe it is all autosuggested in his head, he just tripping in his head and he have weird somatic manifestations (I have a filmed video of that).

Well, this is how I actually look at things.

If I suppose that all this so-called demonic possession all around the Western world are actually just mental states or some kind of illness of individual than I had a hard task to rationalise all this manifestations, and this is what I done. I didn't suddenly accept it as a demonic activities, I was looking for scientific explanation. And I don't see any good and satisfactory explanation.

If I suppose that spiritual realm exist and we are not just stuff made of atoms but a spiritual being with body, then this possession phenomena making this view more stronger. And science cannot deny existence of spiritual realm, and cannot deny existence of God. I don't need evidence, I need only good reasons to believe. And yes I believe there some Higher Force (whatever you wanna call it) exist.

The thing is, people fall down when a "faith healer" lays hands upon them. Thousands of people have done this, even when the healer in question turned out to be a blatant fraud using an earpiece. THIS has happened. Thousands have fallen over merely by a touch from a huckster.

There are invisible social pressures that encourage these behaviors. And an unbiased person must explore these thoroughly before reaching a conclusion.

(May 12, 2021 at 9:04 pm)Flavius007 Wrote: If I suppose that spiritual realm exist and we are not just stuff made of atoms but a spiritual being with body, then this possession phenomena making this view more stronger. And science cannot deny existence of spiritual realm, and cannot deny existence of God. I don't need evidence, I need only good reasons to believe. And yes I believe there some Higher Force (whatever you wann call it) exist.

I would rather focus on the plausibility of the claims you are making rather than whether "we are just made of atoms or we indeed have some kind of spirit-essence." Not because I'm uninterested in the latter. We can discuss that in the philosophy subforum. It's just that, I don't think someone who offers criticism to the claim that demonic possession is real is necessarily wanting to make the point that "everything is just atoms." Even supposing there is some kind of "spiritual realm" that does not mean what you have witnessed is genuine demonic possession.

BTW, welcome to the forums. You seem like an interesting fellow.

Exorcism only makes sense to those who want it to be real below reason.

OP: Those are some very nice stories. Sounds like you're convinced, I'm not.

I can confirm that science has nothing to do with the existence of the spiritual realm/god. The only possible exception is psychology and the study of the human mind and what man is able to create.

Glad you found us. Hoping that you hang around for awhile.

(May 12, 2021 at 9:04 pm)Flavius007 Wrote: Well, those arguments are very shallow and simplified.

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It's all about being indoctrinated?Really? In Europe, especially in Croatia, there is almost no Christian fundamentalists
or Bible believing Christians.

I don't believe possessed teenage girl or adult man or woman are that indoctrinated. I was also deep into Catholic faith, reading about everything, from saints, miracles and theology and this stuff. I was indoctrinated from atheistic point of view into catholic religion. How than I didn't screaming? I was also listened to heavy metal music in that time.

You assuming that being into religion is what making some people to behave like possession? Why then all possession manifestations are similar? Why then someone who is believing he is possessed aren't screaming for help like in panic attacks? It is very obvious that these people (whether they are possessed or not) are suffering. I've been there are it is very painful to watch. I know that this people been to doctor or psychaitrist and that they are sent to priest or Catholic mass for spiritual healing.

How can you explain that? You know that so called possessed people went to doctor and in some cases they went to Catholic mass? Is doctor really that dumb and he doesnt know all this objection you posted?

Well, you can ask almost any practicing Catholic who is active in Church and he will tell you almost same as I.

I was there, looking at pale thin girl, who suddenly started to spit and speak in laungage that seems very weird to me, it is not english and it is not just random words (well maybe it is) and it sounds like was there many other voices (?) or they sound like male from female throat? Is this just a placebo effect? It is very hard to believe that. And is hard to believe that parents indoctrinated their child into religion so much that they make a monster alike from their child. Well, it is that the case than it seems to me like they (the children) were in some sort of religious cult from vulnerable early age. That is not true. It doesn't make sense and it's far fetched.

I know male adult who had same possession manifestations in Međugorje sanctuary and he was not into faith of any kind, I don't know him personally, but I think he was pretty ordinary. I don't believe it is all autosuggested in his head, he just tripping in his head and he have weird somatic manifestations (I have a filmed video of that).

Well, this is how I actually look at things.

If I suppose that all this so-called demonic possession all around the Western world are actually just mental states or some kind of illness of individual than I had a hard task to rationalise all this manifestations, and this is what I done. I didn't suddenly accept it as a demonic activities, I was looking for scientific explanation. And I don't see any good and satisfactory explanation.

If I suppose that spiritual realm exist and we are not just stuff made of atoms but a spiritual being with body, then this possession phenomena making this view more stronger. And science cannot deny existence of spiritual realm, and cannot deny existence of God. I don't need evidence, I need only good reasons to believe. And yes I believe there some Higher Force (whatever you wanna call it) exist.

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Wow, new guy comes out swinging.  Please let him know he can pick up his congeniality sash.

This doesn't look like the musings of an atheist. 

We shall see.

(May 12, 2021 at 7:23 pm)Flavius007 Wrote: how can some girl with poor education know Latin or Hebrew phrases???

You seem not to have investigated it properly when you are referring it to "some girl". Who are we talking about here precisely and what is her background and what Latin or Hebrew phrases is she using if any?

And also this kind of argument I've heard before, like with the alleged alien contactee, Billy Meier, for which his proponents say that his experiences are true because he is using references to obscure Hebrew texts, names, words.

(May 12, 2021 at 7:23 pm)Flavius007 Wrote: In Europe, especially in Croatia, there is almost no Christian fundamentalists
or Bible believing Christians.

Really? Are you telling me there is no anti-abortion movements and no priests who are saying publicly that evolution is a lie? That would be first.

(May 12, 2021 at 10:43 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: This doesn't look like the musings of an atheist. 

In fairness, he identifies himself as an agnostic spiritualist. While many agnostics, myself included, tend to say "since there is no evidence of God, why believe one way or another?" Other agnostics are interested in the possibility of there being God (or something otherworldly) affecting the world. The agnostic answer "I don't know." is not a commitment towards believing one way or another. It's just that most (rational) agnostics don't bother elaborating upon knowledge they don't have. But the exceptions to this rule can be interesting conversation. So... why not?

I'll say this about OP. He needs to be more skeptical. He is too ready to believe things that have alternate (more realistic) explanations. Even a Jungian interpretation of the events (like psychological manifestations of inner aspects) would be better.

(May 12, 2021 at 10:54 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(May 12, 2021 at 10:43 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: This doesn't look like the musings of an atheist. 

In fairness, he identifies himself as an agnostic spiritualist. While many agnostics, myself included, tend to say "since there is no evidence of God, why believe one way or another?" Other agnostics are interested in the possibility of there being God (or something otherworldly) affecting the world. The agnostic answer "I don't know." is not a commitment towards believing one way or another. It's just that most (rational) agnostics don't bother elaborating upon knowledge they don't have. But the exceptions to this rule can be interesting conversation. So... why not?

I'll say this about OP. He needs to be more skeptical. He is too ready to believe things that have alternate (more realistic) explanations. Even a Jungian interpretation of the events (like psychological manifestations of inner aspects) would be better.

I actually don't care if he's a card carrying snake handler.  He opens up with absurd stories...that he witnessed...read anecdotes, and then calls the response of a member shallow and simplified.

I'd rather deal with Drich talking to angels when he's out on a day pass.