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Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
#11
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
Welcome aboard. So.....I have to ask...is it impossible for you to conceive of any other explanation?

What I mean to say - when you ask other people for explanations of this or that thing- is it because you have no other thoughts? Could you, all by yourself.....rehearse what you imagine to be common concerns? What does that look like?

-what doubts or objections do you have, or would you have?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#12
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
(May 12, 2021 at 11:00 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I actually don't care if he's a card carrying snake handler. 

Now THAT would be interesting. More snake handlers please!

Quote:He opens up with absurd stories...that he witnessed...read anecdotes, and then calls the response of a member shallow and simplified.

I don't have a problem with calling an argument shallow and simplified, even though I disagree with that assessment. It was neither shallow nor simplified. It offered good explanations for OP's experiences.

Absurd stories? I agree.

Way too anecdotal? I agree.


Quote:I'd rather deal with Drich talking to angels when he's out on a day pass.

Disagree.
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#13
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
My GG was a holy roller...wasn't religious insomuch as I knew him, all of five..but i'll say this - the man was not afraid of snakes. That's a rare quality for a cracker.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#14
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
See... that sounds neat to me. My great grandparents were rigid Catholics. My great aunt was a nun, and when my sister and I stayed with her, neither of us were allowed to see her hair. Looking back, it was so silly.

At least snake handling is interesting. I mean, five year old me could have endured a boring sleepover with my nun aunt had there been a couple hissing snakes around. Just sayin'.
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#15
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
(May 12, 2021 at 7:23 pm)Flavius007 Wrote: Can someone explain this phenomena?

Religious indoctrination combined with the psychological effect of being caught up in the moment in a specifically religious environment.

Definitely not evidence for anything spiritual or demonic.  It falls far, far short of being evidence at all, in my opinion.
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#16
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
arewethereyet Wrote:I'd rather deal with Drich talking to angels when he's out on a cocaine bender

FTFY
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#17
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
(May 12, 2021 at 11:17 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: See... that sounds neat to me. 

You'd think so - but.....I didn't know he was a holy roller until he was dead.  When he was alive - I just thought he was really brave.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#18
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
He kinda was brave (in a sense). He just labeled his bravery "faith" because that was more socially amenable.
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#19
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
(May 12, 2021 at 9:04 pm)Flavius007 Wrote: Well, those arguments are very shallow and simplified. It's all about being indoctrinated?Really? In Europe, especially in Croatia, there is almost no Christian fundamentalists
or Bible believing Christians.


That's as odd statement, as you've already said you were in a church when you allegedly witnessed this possession. In any case, there don't have to be a lot of Christians in Croatia for a Croatian woman to believe she's possessed.

Quote:I don't believe possessed teenage girl or adult man or woman are that indoctrinated. I was also deep into Catholic faith, reading about everything, from saints, miracles and theology and this stuff. I was indoctrinated from atheistic point of view into catholic religion. How than I didn't screaming? I was also listened to heavy metal music in that time.

You assuming that being into religion is what making some people to behave like possession? Why then all possession manifestations are similar? Why then someone who is believing he is possessed aren't screaming for help like in panic attacks? It is very obvious that these people (whether they are possessed or not) are suffering. I've been there are it is very painful to watch. I know that this people been to doctor or psychaitrist and that they are sent to priest or Catholic mass for spiritual healing.

How can you explain that? You know that so called possessed people went to doctor and in some cases they went to Catholic mass? Is doctor really that dumb and he doesnt know all this objection you posted?

I never said that every indoctrinated person will act as if they are in the throes of demonic possession. But I do think that every person who exhibits signs of possession has been religiously indoctrinated. This is why you never hear reports of atheists becoming possessed.

I agree that 'possessed' people are suffering and suffering greatly. Where we disagree is that you believe they are suffering from an actual demon taking over their bodies, why I believe they are suffering from mental illness.

It makes perfect sense that a psychiatrist would send a person who believes they are possessed to a priest for exorcism. The fact that exorcism works where psychiatric treatment fails is even more evidence that possession signs are symptomatic of religious indoctrination. It doesn't mean that demons are real or that priests have some magical powers to expel them. It means that the poor sod suffering from a possession delusion has convinced himself that ONLY a priest can help him.

Quote:Well, you can ask almost any practicing Catholic who is active in Church and he will tell you almost same as I.

I was there, looking at pale thin girl, who suddenly started to spit and speak in laungage that seems very weird to me, it is not english and it is not just random words (well maybe it is) and it sounds like was there many other voices (?) or they sound like male from female throat? Is this just a placebo effect? It is very hard to believe that. And is hard to believe that parents indoctrinated their child into religion so much that they make a monster alike from their child. Well, it is that the case than it seems to me like they (the children) were in some sort of religious cult from vulnerable early age. That is not true. It doesn't make sense and it's far fetched.

You're describing a phenomenon called 'glossolalia'. It's essentially a person speaking gibberish that sounds like language. Go watch some old Sid Caesar videos and you'll see what I mean.

No, it sounding like many voices isn't a placebo effect. You think it sounded like many voices because you expect it to sound like many voices.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be the parents indoctrinating their child. Self-indoctrination is also a very real possibility, and would be a further sign of a mental illness that manifests as a demonic possession.


Quote:I know male adult who had same possession manifestations in Međugorje sanctuary and he was not into faith of any kind, I don't know him personally, but I think he was pretty ordinary. I don't believe it is all autosuggested in his head, he just tripping in his head and he have weird somatic manifestations (I have a filmed video of that).

Well, this is how I actually look at things.

If I suppose that all this so-called demonic possession all around the Western world are actually just mental states or some kind of illness of individual than I had a hard task to rationalise all this manifestations, and this is what I done. I didn't suddenly accept it as a demonic activities, I was looking for scientific explanation. And I don't see any good and satisfactory explanation.

If I suppose that spiritual realm exist and we are not just stuff made of atoms but a spiritual being with body, then this possession phenomena making this view more stronger. And science cannot deny existence of spiritual realm, and cannot deny existence of God. I don't need evidence, I need only good reasons to believe. And yes I believe there some Higher Force (whatever you wanna call it) exist.

Not being able to find a scientific explanation, especially when there is one, tells me that you haven't looked or that you didn't really want to.

Have a lovely day.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#20
RE: Spiritual realm is very likely real (demonic possession)?
(May 12, 2021 at 11:00 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(May 12, 2021 at 10:54 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: In fairness, he identifies himself as an agnostic spiritualist. While many agnostics, myself included, tend to say "since there is no evidence of God, why believe one way or another?" Other agnostics are interested in the possibility of there being God (or something otherworldly) affecting the world. The agnostic answer "I don't know." is not a commitment towards believing one way or another. It's just that most (rational) agnostics don't bother elaborating upon knowledge they don't have. But the exceptions to this rule can be interesting conversation. So... why not?

I'll say this about OP. He needs to be more skeptical. He is too ready to believe things that have alternate (more realistic) explanations. Even a Jungian interpretation of the events (like psychological manifestations of inner aspects) would be better.
I actually don't care if he's a card carrying snake handler.  He opens up with absurd stories...that he witnessed...read anecdotes, and then calls the response of a member shallow and simplified.

I'd rather deal with Drich talking to angels when he's out on a day pass.

To be fair, I'm known far and wide as a shallow, simple fella.  Smile

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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