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RE: Atheists in church
September 22, 2021 at 2:28 pm
(This post was last modified: September 22, 2021 at 2:32 pm by Aegon.)
(September 21, 2021 at 2:57 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 2:40 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Probably drawing a line where it doesn't exist. You appear to believe that decisions based upon your beliefs, which guide your life, are rational. That it's reasonable, for example..to seek and affirm happiness over truth. I think you're right, now you just have to let yourself be. It's pointless to try and convince people that you're a complete loon - as the argument assaults it's own premise on account of being an argument, as angrboda pointed out..and even if you succeeded....well....
I think this is one of the bigger gaps on the boards, from the pov of convos. The notion is that religious beliefs are other-than...even you, a religious person, are here arguing as much. We get apologist after apologist excusing their beliefs from these grounds. Let's run with it, though. Your religious beliefs..are irrational or a-rational..and don't need to be rational. Fine. What if some other persons religious beliefs did need to be and were rational, and were true? Then good for them. Whatever works, is fine. It's strange how atheists demand everything be rational and "true", but they also believe that death is the permanent end. Why do they waste time/energy defending an abstract concept like rationality, if everything is just going to disappear the moment they die anyway?
You have a point, inadvertently at least. It is kind of a waste of time to argue about rationality with others who don't agree. Better to enjoy the preset moment instead.
(September 22, 2021 at 11:58 am)Ahriman Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 7:38 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Why don’t you care about being rational? Holding irrational beliefs has served me well so far. I have no reason to adopt a hard-line rationale for everything I do or believe.
??? Of course you do. Otherwise you just react to things. That's no way to go through existence.
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RE: Atheists in church
September 22, 2021 at 2:34 pm
(This post was last modified: September 22, 2021 at 2:37 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Better by what metric, and can we even suggest a metric without falling into the trap of rationalism?
Ahri has and makes no point, and, it's because Ahri fails that, we see a retreat to anti-pointism. All of it..optional.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheists in church
September 22, 2021 at 3:23 pm
(This post was last modified: September 22, 2021 at 3:25 pm by Simon Moon.)
(September 22, 2021 at 11:58 am)Ahriman Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 7:38 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Why don’t you care about being rational? Holding irrational beliefs has served me well so far. I have no reason to adopt a hard-line rationale for everything I do or believe.
With regards to things like: love, taste in art, music, movies, hardly anyone bases these on rational thinking. These fall into the category of being non-rational. It is neither rational or irrational to like the art one likes.
But, with regards to beliefs in existential claims like the existence of gods, this is different. One's beliefs don't live in a vacuum, they have real world consequences. People vote, and treat people differently, depending on their god beliefs.
And you claim that your irrational beliefs have served you well, so far. But I would suggest, that having an internal model of the world, that can be demonstrated to more closely map to reality, will help people navigate their lives making better decisions. Just because you have been doing ok, so far, doesn't mean you couldn't have been doing better, by holding rational beliefs.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Atheists in church
September 22, 2021 at 3:27 pm
(This post was last modified: September 22, 2021 at 3:29 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A competing view, is that it's rational to assert those values, and rational to deny them. Rationality is not the relevant difference.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheists in church
September 23, 2021 at 7:16 pm
This is like being part of a chess club but not playing or liking chess...makes no sense...join another club if you need a club/community..
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RE: Atheists in church
September 24, 2021 at 6:27 pm
(September 23, 2021 at 7:16 pm)UniverseCaptain Wrote: This is like being part of a chess club but not playing or liking chess...makes no sense...join another club if you need a club/community..
Every church I've ever been to is much more complex than a chess club.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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RE: Atheists in church
September 24, 2021 at 6:30 pm
(September 24, 2021 at 6:27 pm)Spongebob Wrote: (September 23, 2021 at 7:16 pm)UniverseCaptain Wrote: This is like being part of a chess club but not playing or liking chess...makes no sense...join another club if you need a club/community..
Every church I've ever been to is much more complex than a chess club. Yeah but it's the same in principle.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: Atheists in church
September 24, 2021 at 6:33 pm
(September 24, 2021 at 6:30 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (September 24, 2021 at 6:27 pm)Spongebob Wrote: Every church I've ever been to is much more complex than a chess club. Yeah but it's the same in principle.
What do you know about principles? You're admitted to being immoral.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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RE: Atheists in church
September 24, 2021 at 6:46 pm
(This post was last modified: September 24, 2021 at 6:51 pm by Ahriman.)
(September 24, 2021 at 6:33 pm)Spongebob Wrote: (September 24, 2021 at 6:30 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Yeah but it's the same in principle.
What do you know about principles? You're admitted to being immoral. I know quite a lot about principles. It's not like I've ever done anything immoral, unless you count having premarital sex a few times, with the same girl, or smoking cigarettes, but I don't consider those things "immoral", although I will admit the sex is pushing it. My (potential) immorality has more to do with what I would do if given a significant amount of power, and what goes through my head when I think of that.
Church is not the right place for an atheist. That's like going to a concert, but you don't like any of the bands that are playing.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: Atheists in church
September 24, 2021 at 6:58 pm
(This post was last modified: September 24, 2021 at 7:00 pm by Spongebob.)
(September 24, 2021 at 6:46 pm)Ahriman Wrote: I know quite a lot about principles. It's not like I've ever done anything immoral, unless you count having premarital sex a few times, with the same girl, or smoking cigarettes, but I don't consider those things "immoral", although I will admit the sex is pushing it. My (potential) immorality has more to do with what I would do if given a significant amount of power, and what goes through my head when I think of that. You certainly know how to pretend to have principles. But you don't know how to have them. If you talk about of both sides of your mouth, you don't have principles. That's kind of how it works.
I'm curious; you say you aren't Christian, so why is premarital sex immoral?
Are you Zoroastrian or do you just think your username sounds cool?
Quote:Church is not the right place for an atheist. That's like going to a concert, but you don't like any of the bands that are playing.
Sorry, but that's not for you to decide. And that analogy is no better than the chess one. In fact it's quite the same. Church is far more complex and includes non-religious cultural aspects and community.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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