Klor - the assertion "the universe began to exist" which has a perfectly clear meaning.

When you say the universe, are you referring to the current universe, as in a collection of galaxies and clusters of galaxies, black holes, peculiar stellar objects, massive voids, etc

The first galaxies formed roughly 500 million years or less after the initial inflation event.
That's a long time for something you think was magically "created" in the snap of a finger or the twitch of a nose.

As it turns out, the details matter and the idea that something begins to exist isn't actually very clear.

When does a baby become a child ?
When does a child become a toddler ?
When does a toddler become a kid ?

When did each of these stages "begin to exist" ?
Each day a child grows and they look exactly or nearly exactly the same as they looked yesterday, but yet all those small changes add up and if you think about when you began to exist, the you that you are now, when would you say that happened ?

When did the adult you begin to exist ?

It's not such a clear beginning is it.

As far as I can tell, he seems to be hung-up on the following:



Instead of starting with a beginning-less past until the present, start with the present and go back into the past (which astronomers do with telescopes); you'll simply go on forever and ever.

C'mon guys, listen. god is real, ok. Because it's real, real scary if god is not real. So, therefore, ultimately, in conclusion god is real.

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: In a more modern take, the technique of forcing in set theory (which was used to show the independence of the axiom of choice) relies on a version of multivalued (even infinitely valued) logic.

Next, the whole point of paraconsistent logics is exactly that the 'explosion' phenomenon of classical logic (where one false statement implies everything), is avoided. i can give you some references if you are interested in looking at what this leads to, including some very interesting aspects of mathematics including how to deal with Russell's paradox.

From the bit of research I did on the topic of multi-valued logic, it seems it doesn't introduce any fundamentally new concept, it's just a different way of looking at the semantics of some logical propositions, which can be perfectly described using classical logic. You might have come across Suszko's thesis, it literally says than certain categories of multi-valued logic can be provided with bivalent semantics, that is, classical logic.

Interestingly, the idea of positing three or more truth values was motivated by contingent propositions such as; P: "It will rain tomorrow". Some logicians suggest assigning a new truth value to P: as-yet-undetermined. It's clear that this is a redundant way to interpret P, because P contains the label "tomorrow" by construction, and we know what tomorrow is, it's the next 24 hours. If, at some point of time within this interval, there is rainfall, then P is true, and vice versa. We just don't need a third truth value for that.

If you have a reference on some substantial result in mathematics that can't be proven using classical logic, then I am definitely interested. So far, I am convinced that anything beyond classical logic is based on some redundant (maybe clearer) description of logical statements.

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Look up intuitionist mathematics some time. A great deal of math can be done without excluded middle. And, yes, like math without AC (which, by the way is NOT an axiom of logic, but of set theory), such mathematics tend to be stilted and lack beauty. But don't forget the paradoxes produced by AC (like the Banach-Tarski paradox).

That said, some of the recent developments in set theory are based on looking at alternatives to AC and seeing how such alternatives apply to the more traditional math.

There are many more alternatives to the 'laws of thought' than you seem to think exist.

I agree. But the simple fact is, we will mostly be content with classical logic. Physicists don't look for alternatives to these laws of thought when they formulate their theories. This of course doesn't mean alternative axioms are useless, but I frankly don't see why we should go to such lengths when discussing short arguments with simples premises. 

In general, these laws of thoughts are the foundation of rational discourse. That is, one cannot have a meaningful argumentation if they start second-guessing the very building blocks of how one evaluates logical propositions. It's just an exercise in futility, or, as they say, mental masturbation.

Since classical logic is enough to properly formulate all modern theories of physics, including GR, QM and the Standard Model. It's safe to say classical logic is enough to describe reality, and so can be used when formulating premises in a posteriori arguments about metaphysical entities.

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Well, as above, it is far from clear that the universe 'began to exist' in the sense you have give: was there a *point* when the universe did not exist and was it in fact in a causal chain?

if so, where did that causal chain begin?

But, more specifically, causality is something that happens *within* the universe and *within* time. And no, not every event is caused. It is clear that many events at the quantum level cannot be said to be caused in any classical sense.

Again, if you accept the causality principle, then a universe that began to exist has to be in a causal chain. The causality principle rules out an uncaused universe that began to exist.

You say, "causality is something that happens with the universe", and I will again ask you why? Why do you think that things outside of this spacetime can somehow spontaneously arise from nothing -in the philosophers' sense, not Krauss's, really nothing- ? Even Hume didn't go this far AFAIK.

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Where is the contradiction? And no, thi sis NOT a difference between 'potential' and 'actual' infinities. I am talking about an *actual* infinite past. My example has an *actual* infinite past. Look at the set of *all* integers, both positive and negative. That is a countably infinite set and every element has infinitely many precursors. And yet, you still have 0 and 10 and -100.

I mean.. seriously ? An infinite set of numbers is the archetype a potential infinity, it's just a collection of stuff, that's it. In the real world of actual infinities, it's not just a collection of stuff, it's a causal chain of stuff, where each element in this chain is a necessary condition for the existence of the next element. In a set of numbers, 1 didn't cause 2, nor did 9 cause 10. 

And regarding an infinite past, saying that any wait between two events is finite doesn't solve the problem, we're not discussing two events, we're discussing the entire duration of time that needs to elapse for us to get to the present moment, an infinite past doesn't have a lower bound, so a universe with an infinite past actually went through an infinite wait -impossible.

That's how we know that arrows can't hit targets, and one runner can never overtake another. Therefore god

(September 24, 2021 at 11:51 am)Klorophyll Wrote:

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: In a more modern take, the technique of forcing in set theory (which was used to show the independence of the axiom of choice) relies on a version of multivalued (even infinitely valued) logic.

Next, the whole point of paraconsistent logics is exactly that the 'explosion' phenomenon of classical logic (where one false statement implies everything), is avoided. i can give you some references if you are interested in looking at what this leads to, including some very interesting aspects of mathematics including how to deal with Russell's paradox.

From the bit of research I did on the topic of multi-valued logic, it seems it doesn't introduce any fundamentally new concept, it's just a different way of looking at the semantics of some logical propositions, which can be perfectly described using classical logic. You might have come across Suszko's thesis, it literally says than certain categories of multi-valued logic can be provided with bivalent semantics, that is, classical logic.

Interestingly, the idea of positing three or more truth values was motivated by contingent propositions such as; P: "It will rain tomorrow". Some logicians suggest assigning a new truth value to P: as-yet-undetermined. It's clear that this is a redundant way to interpret P, because P contains the label "tomorrow" by construction, and we know what tomorrow is, it's the next 24 hours. If, at some point of time within this interval, there is rainfall, then P is true, and vice versa. We just don't need a third truth value for that.

If you have a reference on some substantial result in mathematics that can't be proven using classical logic, then I am definitely interested. So far, I am convinced that anything beyond classical logic is based on some redundant (maybe clearer) description of logical statements.

The independence of the axiom of choice and of the continuum hypothesis. Cohen's proofs of these used, in a fundamental way, multi-valued logic.

Quote:

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Look up intuitionist mathematics some time. A great deal of math can be done without excluded middle. And, yes, like math without AC (which, by the way is NOT an axiom of logic, but of set theory), such mathematics tend to be stilted and lack beauty. But don't forget the paradoxes produced by AC (like the Banach-Tarski paradox).

That said, some of the recent developments in set theory are based on looking at alternatives to AC and seeing how such alternatives apply to the more traditional math.

There are many more alternatives to the 'laws of thought' than you seem to think exist.

I agree. But the simple fact is, we will mostly be content with classical logic. Physicists don't look for alternatives to these laws of thought when they formulate their theories. This of course doesn't mean alternative axioms are useless, but I frankly don't see why we should go to such lengths when discussing short arguments with simples premises. 

In general, these laws of thoughts are the foundation of rational discourse. That is, one cannot have a meaningful argumentation if they start second-guessing the very building blocks of how one evaluates logical propositions. It's just an exercise in futility, or, as they say, mental masturbation.

Since classical logic is enough to properly formulate all modern theories of physics, including GR, QM and the Standard Model. It's safe to say classical logic is enough to describe reality, and so can be used when formulating premises in a posteriori arguments about metaphysical entities.

While I would say that the existence of alternatives shows that you cannot simply assume that only classical logic is valid. Not to mention that much of what you call classical logic only came into existence in the last two centuries.

Quote:

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Well, as above, it is far from clear that the universe 'began to exist' in the sense you have give: was there a *point* when the universe did not exist and was it in fact in a causal chain?

if so, where did that causal chain begin?

But, more specifically, causality is something that happens *within* the universe and *within* time. And no, not every event is caused. It is clear that many events at the quantum level cannot be said to be caused in any classical sense.

Again, if you accept the causality principle, then a universe that began to exist has to be in a causal chain. The causality principle rules out an uncaused universe that began to exist.

Which means that you need to show that the universe 'began to exist' in the sense you defined. you need to show there is a point at which the universe did not exist. Do you have a proof of that?

Quote:You say, "causality is something that happens with the universe", and I will again ask you why? Why do you think that things outside of this spacetime can somehow spontaneously arise from nothing -in the philosophers' sense, not Krauss's, really nothing- ? Even Hume didn't go this far AFAIK.

What things out of spacetime? I don't know of anything like that.

Quote:

(September 23, 2021 at 3:34 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Where is the contradiction? And no, thi sis NOT a difference between 'potential' and 'actual' infinities. I am talking about an *actual* infinite past. My example has an *actual* infinite past. Look at the set of *all* integers, both positive and negative. That is a countably infinite set and every element has infinitely many precursors. And yet, you still have 0 and 10 and -100.

I mean.. seriously ? An infinite set of numbers is the archetype a potential infinity, it's just a collection of stuff, that's it. In the real world of actual infinities, it's not just a collection of stuff, it's a causal chain of stuff, where each element in this chain is a necessary condition for the existence of the next element. In a set of numbers, 1 didn't cause 2, nor did 9 cause 10.

An actual collection of all numbers would be an actual infinity.

Quote:And regarding an infinite past, saying that any wait between two events is finite doesn't solve the problem, we're not discussing two events, we're discussing the entire duration of time that needs to elapse for us to get to the present moment, an infinite past doesn't have a lower bound, so a universe with an infinite past actually went through an infinite wait -impossible.

No wait. It was simply always happening.

(September 23, 2021 at 3:07 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(September 21, 2021 at 11:42 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: This is merely assertion.

It's the causality principle. Are you sure you want to drop causality ?

If causality is a feature of the universe then asking for the cause of the universe is slightly less sensible than asking for the causality. Kindly demonstrate causality without a universe. Have fun on the epistemology with that one.

Quote:

(September 21, 2021 at 11:42 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: Sloppy and incorrect. Humans need reasons to try and make sense of things. A rock needs no reason for its existence, it simply exists. It requires causality, not a back story.

Don't be unfair to rocks. A rock is simply a component of the Earth's crust, without which you would be swimming in valleys of iron/nickel at their melting temperature. That's the "reason" rocks exist.

 
That is simply a reason that you have given it. Even a superficial examination of it reveals fatal flaws, the simplest of which is that the overwhelming majority of rocks don't exist on Earth, or even in our solar system. As such they are utterly incapable of fulfilling the "reason" you suggest above. Nice work on the egocentrism though.

Quote:

(September 21, 2021 at 11:42 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: Kindly demonstrate that the universe is contingent.

X is contingent if it could have not existed. The universe could have not existed. QED.

This is assertion, not reason. Kindly demonstrate that the universe could have not existed.

(September 7, 2021 at 7:42 pm)no one Wrote: god is make believe.

We don't say schizophrenia is make believe.
  We don't say a pathological delusion or psychotic experience is make believe.  
The god delusion is no pretend 
God is not make believe.  
It's no pretend 
Ppl have been wired for potentials to have god beliefs since cave days 
This ^^ is an upgrade concept 
Science & medicine is superior to logic/philosophy

(October 2, 2021 at 2:25 pm)Ghetto Sheldon Wrote: Science & medicine is superior to logic/philosophy

Welcome to the forum, Sheldon!

I disagree that science is superior to logic. One relies on the other. Scientists use logic all the time. They are both awesome.

Science informs philosophy by providing true premises. Logic aids science by helping us to reach accurate conclusions.

Where does this idea come from? You don't hear many people arguing that science is superior to French literature or interpretive dance.

It sounds to all the world like some people find philosophy threatening, and these are the noises they make to express their alarm.