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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:29 pm
(March 31, 2022 at 12:10 pm)RBP3280 Wrote: (March 31, 2022 at 1:33 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: So as a researcher of NDEs, what do you make of that virtually all those who have the NDE experience see only prominent figures who are associated with their religion? Hindus do not report seeing Zeus, Christians do not report meeting Mohammed, and Muslims never seem to encounter Joseph Smith. And no one ever gets greeted by a long-forgotten god from an extinct prehistoric religion.
Not all experiencers meet prominent figures, many meet people they new in life that have passed. As for meeting historic religious leaders to me it only makes sense that they would meet the religious leader of their beliefs.
Ah yes, good old "makes sense" epistemology. If you can somehow make your hypothesis consistent with the facts, then you can conclude that it is true. There's a reason science doesn't work this way.
By the way, what do you make of people experiencing NDEs featuring people who are actually still alive?
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:30 pm
Here is a link for anyone inclined to do some honest research. https://near-death.com/an-analysis-of-th...-atheists/
It isn't conclusive by any means but should give one something to think about.
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:34 pm
I researched NDEs 30 years ago. I determined it provided no evidence of an afterlife. I still feel that way.
I think its quite sad to base your religion on pseudo-scientific research.
The difference between science and pseudo-science, is that pseudo-science doesn't want to debunk itself. It only wants stories that confirm the narrative.
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:35 pm
One of my favorites is https://near-death.com/science. This site really only covers the basics of the research that has been done. For someone wanting to study honest research I think it is a good place to start.
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:42 pm
(This post was last modified: March 31, 2022 at 12:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 31, 2022 at 12:10 pm)RBP3280 Wrote: Not all experiencers meet prominent figures, many meet people they new in life that have passed. As for meeting historic religious leaders to me it only makes sense that they would meet the religious leader of their beliefs. To me the most interesting NDE are those of atheist.
Sure do...kindof puts the whole "I saw jesus after he died" thing into cold light, doesn't it? If you're going to hallucinate a person, nde or not...religious figures and departed dear ones are the top two.
I keep asking why you think being an atheist has anything to do with this, though? Atheists don't believe in gods. Tons of atheists believe in afterlives, and don't need to have an nde to convince them of their existence. Something tells me, in the case of those of us who don't..the problem isn't a lack of "honest research".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:42 pm
(March 31, 2022 at 1:53 am)Belacqua Wrote: (March 31, 2022 at 12:20 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: these aren't merely artifacts of literature, they are cognitive maps for representing the world.
I was thinking about how a series of true events might become allegory. It seems to me that it depends entirely on how and to whom we tell these events.
Like if a rock star gets rich and famous and then squanders all his money and dies, it's a series of real-life events.
But if your dad relays this story to you when you're young and on the verge of success, then it's an allegory about Temperance and Prudence.
Yes. There remains an philosophical problem in the background about how ANY material object or physical event can have any significance at all.
<insert profound quote here>
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:46 pm
(This post was last modified: March 31, 2022 at 12:48 pm by Aegon.)
(March 30, 2022 at 2:08 pm)RBP3280 Wrote: (March 29, 2022 at 10:18 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I'm curious how far you take the notion of allegorization. After all, even hardcore fundamentalists think that some things in the Bible are allegory.
Some modern Christians deem Jesus' miracles to be allegory. It makes sense when you consider things like the "feeding many with a few fish." Obviously meant by the author to convey some sort of basic fact about community, compassion, and sharing. At least to me anyway. What's your take on that?
Some Christians I've spoken to see the creation story and the "wilder tales" listed in the Bible as allegory, but insist that "the death and resurrection" are historical occurrences. Where do you lie on that scale, if you don't mind my asking?
Good point. First of all I haven't seen any evidence that the resurrection didn't occur, so we can speculate all day long but all we have is the accounts in the bible.
That's not how logic works, sir. If nobody else in the history of humanity has come back from the dead, what's more likely - Jesus was able to do it, or it's not a real story? It's not even close, the odds are very obviously in favor of the latter. "Nobody knows for sure so it could go either way" is very poor logic.
(March 31, 2022 at 12:10 pm)RBP3280 Wrote: I came to these forms stating I have questions and I have failed to ask the questions I came with. As atheist do believe it makes no difference how you live your life? Another words a person we may consider evil verses some one the works for the good of man kind.
To me, to think there is nothing more than this life, then Solomon was right when he said "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."
Do you only ever do things for a greater pay-off in the future?
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 12:58 pm
(This post was last modified: March 31, 2022 at 1:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 31, 2022 at 12:10 pm)RBP3280 Wrote: I came to these forms stating I have questions and I have failed to ask the questions I came with. As atheist do believe it makes no difference how you live your life? Another words a person we may consider evil verses some one the works for the good of man kind.
I think it makes a huge difference how a person lives their life. It's pretty clear, to me, that a kind and loving father who provides for his children isn't the same as a serial abuser who finally does them the mercy of abandoning them - for example.
What you're looking for are sociopaths, not atheists...sociopaths.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 1:09 pm
(March 31, 2022 at 12:42 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes. There remains an philosophical problem in the background about how ANY material object or physical event can have any significance at all.
I can't speak on the philosophical side. But my guess from a psychological perspective is that allegory resembles other properties of our memory system.
That is to say, events we experience occur in a web of causality and consequence from which information can be extracted in order to guide behavior in similar or future events. In other words, we've learned something.
Allegory in the classical sense seems to be a more abstract and figurative imitation of this kind of learning.
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RE: Is Allegorical Religion better than Fundamentalism?
March 31, 2022 at 1:13 pm
(March 31, 2022 at 1:09 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (March 31, 2022 at 12:42 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes. There remains an philosophical problem in the background about how ANY material object or physical event can have any significance at all.
I can't speak on the philosophical side. But my guess from a psychological perspective is that allegory resembles other properties of our memory system.
That is to say, events we experience occur in a web of causality and consequence from which information can be extracted in order to guide behavior in similar or future events. In other words, we've learned something.
Allegory in the classical sense seems to be a more abstract and figurative imitation of this kind of learning.
I and another person at AD have repeated debates with a third person about whether you can control your emotions through reason. It always leaves me with a question which I find compelling, "If our reason is the steward, and we know that something is fiction, why do we cry at movies or get upset when a beloved character dies?"
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