This conversation on pascal's wager is practically identical to the one on QI, very funny =P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4AXOmPZ6fo

(November 27, 2011 at 3:29 am)Forsaken Wrote: I am new to this forum so not sure if this has been already discussed.

The other day, I was having an interesting conversation with a friend who believes in god. He asked me "What if I was wrong? What if God exists and you realize that after death?" Well, I simply told him that there is nothing to be wrong about as I am steadfast to my belief that there is nothing such as god. The conversation should have ended there, but I took the liberty to ask him the same question. His response was something I was not expecting from someone who claims himself as a true devotee of god.

Basically what he mentioned was that he was playing it safe, and that is what majority of the religious people do (according to him). If he was wrong, no problem! It did not cost him a dime to believe in god, so if god did not exist, after his death, he is simply gone from the face of the earth and his body rotted away in his grave. But if he was right, then he is safe and will go to heaven for his beliefs.

This is what really opened my eyes. Probably the fear of what will happen in after-life is driving most people to believe in some form of god. If he exists, they are safe. If he does not, no problems. At least, they are leaving no stones unturned!

I agree to a point as far as christianity is concerned, I can't speak for other religions. I know many come to Christ out of the fear of hell, I did, I see no problem with this, Jesus preached on hell often and that it is a real concern for nonbelievers. Why do you obey all the laws of the land, so that you can be the best citizen ever or because of the possible punishment. If someone just receives Christ to stay out of hell and uses salvation as an insurance policy and never grows in a relationship with Him then who knows what may happen when they die. Eternal life is a first step in one's belief in Christ, after that a relationship should develop with Christ, this is when work comes into the christian belief, to serve Christ is to show your love for Him. So for those who use Christ as an insurance policy I would question their absolute belief in Him, to me it is a half belief and a half belief in my opinion is no belief at all.

Don't see the problem with this eh? So you don't think that threatening someone until they meet your demands might be something of an issue? No help for you then, is there? I don't follow laws because I fear punishment GC, I follow them because it's easy for me to follow them. I'm not a theif, or a rapist, or a murderer. If there were no law, I still wouldn't be any of those things. Is that the only reason you aren't? Since you keep harping about it, how's the relationship going? You had any good conversations with the big man recently?

(this weeks sermon was about a "relationship" with christ wasn't it? I hate platitudes. You do realize that the only kind of reationship you could be having with christ would get you thrown in jail if he were an actual person? When you obsess and chase after someone who does not speak to you or otherwise engage you in any way, someone who actually hides from you...it's called stalking.)

(November 27, 2011 at 3:29 am)Forsaken Wrote: If he does not, no problems. At least, they are leaving no stones unturned!

This actually comes up a lot in the theist vs. atheist world. The fact of the matter is, that is ridiculous, because it is equally likely that God will punish people for believing in him. That is the simplest refutation to Pascal's Wager. It doesn't make any sense, but it makes just as much sense as Pascal's Wager, so therefore it doesn't make sense either.

You know, I've come across this question a time or two, and sure, if someone is holding a gun to my head, I'm likely to do whatever it takes to preserve my life, even sexual indignity. But there comes a point at which, you realize the odds of the gun being real, or that it holds anything but blanks, are not worth considering; the number of bad things that "might happen" at that level of frequency is uncountably infinite. Sure, infinity alters the equation, but one has to set an epistemic cutoff point beyond which one will not worry about such things, or never get any sleep. And who knows what really satisfies a god like Yahweh, so infinitely plastic, changeable, and unpredictable -- he's more crazy than I am, and that's quite a feat. I had a lover once who said that she would know if I loved them by some thing that I would do; my friends' comments were, well, is it "wearing underwear on my head" -- how the fuck do you know? How in hell do I know if I'm doing the dance that God wants me to do? And there are so many opinions on just what that dance is, that, the classic objection leveled at Pascal's wager rings true: no matter which dance you do, the sheer odds are that it is the wrong dance. Why waste your time? There are infinite gods, and infinite ways of pleasing them -- you can't cover them all. So what do you? Simply be the best human you can be, and let the chips fall where they may. Anything else is madness. And would you be happy or fulfilled any other way?

What would any huckster do when when neither his outright temptations nor his outright threats have carried the day for him?

Yaweh's motto: Faith by any means necessary.

(November 28, 2011 at 3:41 am)apophenia Wrote: ....there comes a point at which, you realize the odds of the gun being real, or that it holds anything but blanks, are not worth considering; the number of bad things that "might happen" at that level of frequency is uncountably infinite.

Or the odds of him actually killing you before you take the gun and beat his silly ass to death with it for making a terrible mistake in his assessment of just how far either of you is willing to go in violence respectively. This is exactly the stance I take regarding the "terrorist god" concept. If he's going to point a gun at me he'd better have a fucking deathgrip on it. To say that I don't appreciate this sort of "persuasion" is to state my opinion very lightly.

Pascal's Wager assumes you can actually choose to believe in God.
You can't choose to believe something.

As you look at your computer screen now can you choose to believe that the screen is not real and not really there.

I could go to a church every week and say the prayers and sing hymns but I would still never believe that God was real.

(November 28, 2011 at 2:41 am)Godschild Wrote: If someone just receives Christ to stay out of hell and uses salvation as an insurance policy and never grows in a relationship with Him then who knows what may happen when they die. Eternal life is a first step in one's belief in Christ, after that a relationship should develop with Christ, this is when work comes into the christian belief, to serve Christ is to show your love for Him.

Pull your pants down and bend over for christ! Yeah! Are you ready to receive him? jesus fucking christ! Show me your love jebus, I love you so much, but stick a bit of lube on please.