(June 1, 2022 at 1:18 pm)Angrboda Wrote: So, our self awareness is insufficiently fully self aware?  I think I've just been Chopra'd.

Yes, it that hard to understand?   Self-awareness is based on a mental model of self that runs on the circuitry of the being the model captures.  The mental model has high enough fidelity to capture a wide range of the complex behavior and predict their effects,  but does not have high enough fidelity to capture the fact that this self model ends when the physical being on whose circuitry it runs ends, hence the tendency to predict continued life like interactions between self and external elements after the physical being itself is predicted to have come to an end.

So our self-awareness algorithm lack the fidelity to instinctive know there will be no self awareness after death, rather we instinctive tend to assume self awareness continues after death.

(June 1, 2022 at 1:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It’s fairly well established that plants exhibit minimal self awareness. Does this mean petunias believe they have souls (since it’s pretty certain that their self awareness is even less fully self aware than our own)?

 Lol, are you not capable of comprehending what he said? Plants do not have the intelligence to cognize such abstract ideas as a soul. 

He said the idea of a soul is resulted from a not fully realized awareness, rather than a complete lack of awareness.

(June 1, 2022 at 1:50 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

Clearly you are not sufficiently self aware.

(June 1, 2022 at 1:28 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 1, 2022 at 1:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (Bold mine)

It’s fairly well established that plants exhibit minimal self awareness. Does this mean petunias believe they have souls (since it’s pretty certain that their self awareness is even less fully self aware than our own)?

Boru

Really, to what extent have we established plants are self-aware in the sense of running a model of itself on, something, in order to predict consequences and affect its own behavior?

Also, how does the notion thar being more accurately and completely aware of ourselves than we currently are would have precluded the delusion of a soul, imply the delusion of soul is intrinsic to all lesser degrees or types of self-awareness?

To this extent:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4571702/

To be fair, it describes self awareness as a general concept, not the specific definition that you personally dreamed up.

Second paragraph: It doesn’t, because your claim that the delusion of a soul is the result of not fully realized self awareness isn’t a fact, just another thing you dreamed up. That aside, at what level of awareness does the idea of a soul appear? Petunias? Oysters? Cats? Astronauts?

Boru

(June 1, 2022 at 1:49 pm)chiknsld Wrote:

(June 1, 2022 at 1:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It’s fairly well established that plants exhibit minimal self awareness. Does this mean petunias believe they have souls (since it’s pretty certain that their self awareness is even less fully self aware than our own)?

 Lol, are you not capable of comprehending what he said? Plants do not have the intelligence to cognize such abstract ideas as a soul. 

He said the idea of a soul is resulted from a not fully realized awareness, rather than a complete lack of awareness.

I don’t think petunias believe in souls. But Anom claimed that belief in a souls is the result of some level of self awareness. He left intelligence completely out of the equation.

That’s not what he said. He said that our self awareness itself is not fully aware, not that we aren’t. This means that our self awareness must also be self aware, which leads me to conclude that that self awareness must also be self aware, and so on. Technically, this sort of statement is known as ‘gibberish’.

Boru

(June 1, 2022 at 2:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 1, 2022 at 1:28 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Really, to what extent have we established plants are self-aware in the sense of running a model of itself on, something, in order to predict consequences and affect its own behavior?

Also, how does the notion thar being more accurately and completely aware of ourselves than we currently are would have precluded the delusion of a soul, imply the delusion of soul is intrinsic to all lesser degrees or types of self-awareness?

To this extent:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4571702/

To be fair, it describes self awareness as a general concept, not the specific definition that you personally dreamed up.

Second paragraph: It doesn’t, because your claim that the delusion of a soul is the result of not fully realized self awareness isn’t a fact, just another thing you dreamed up. That aside, at what level of awareness does the idea of a soul appear? Petunias? Oysters? Cats? Astronauts?

Boru

Yes, I dreamed it up, you have a problem with that?    I am not a slave to ideals of other people.

A conception of soul becomes a possibility at the level of self-modeling which extends farther forward in time then the next interaction with surrounding or a set of interactions that will span just a small fraction of the organism’s life span.    when the self-model capture large portion of the life cycle of the organism to include eventual inevitable death of the organism, then some concept similar to the soul would arise if the model fail to accurately predict the model itself, with it any self perception, ends when the organism inevitably ends.

is a cat aware it will grow old and die?   if so, does it tend to think it will need to continue to have more kittens and catch more mouse, somewhere, after it dies because it’s internal models of itself said it just always will do these things?  if it does that it could be said it has a concept of soul.

Self-awareness: Now in convenient purse size for the woman on the go!

(June 1, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 1, 2022 at 2:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: To this extent:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4571702/

To be fair, it describes self awareness as a general concept, not the specific definition that you personally dreamed up.

Second paragraph: It doesn’t, because your claim that the delusion of a soul is the result of not fully realized self awareness isn’t a fact, just another thing you dreamed up. That aside, at what level of awareness does the idea of a soul appear? Petunias? Oysters? Cats? Astronauts?

Boru

Yes, I dreamed it up, you have a problem with that?    I am not a slave to ideals of other people.

A conception of soul becomes a possibility at the level of self-modeling which extends farther forward in time then the next interaction with surrounding or a set of interactions that will span just a small fraction of the organism’s life span.    when the self-model capture large portion of the life cycle of the organism to include eventual inevitable death of the organism, then the concept of the soul would arise if the model fail to accurately predict the model itself, with it any self perception, ends when the organism inevitably ends.

is a cat aware it will grow old and die?   if so, does it reflexively think it will need to continue to have more kittens and catch more mouse, somewhere, after it dies?  if it does that it could be said it has a concept of soul.

Argle bargle worble whoosh.

Boru

(June 1, 2022 at 2:45 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Self-awareness: Now in convenient purse size for the woman on the go!

get a larger purse?