(August 16, 2022 at 5:53 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: What evidence do you have that the quran is the revelation from god?
(not trying to cause upset, just curious why one piece of ancient text is believed and another one isn't)

The consistency of the Quran and the scenario it draws for life, death and the universe as a whole is the evidence.

For example, it's very ancient and not altered, an ancient copy is even held in Britain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham...manuscript

Then you have verses speak about the Big Bang:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-64215.html

and countless other verses.

I take that to be the evidence.

(August 16, 2022 at 5:49 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(August 15, 2022 at 11:17 pm)Tomato Wrote: Theists need to stop claiming themselves as theistically devoted to their faith if they're ignoring essential teachings from their prophet.

You see, the Hadith is not the teachings of Mohammed PBUH, but "reports claiming to narrate Mohammed's words".

Every report is called a single "Hadith".

A "Hadith book" is a book containing these reports. There are thousands of reports and volumes upon volumes of "reports claiming to narrate Mohammed's words".

So technically, I denounce them because I simply trust no historical report told before 1400 years. 

The reason you have "Sunni Islam" and "Shiite Islam" is these reports: some believe in a group of reports only, others believe in another group of reports.

While the Quran is the only admitted book to be the one and only revelation from God, while all the Hadiths are mere "reports" claiming that Mohammed said this or that in addition.

So I denounce the reports, and believe in the revelation only.

That's nice. But that's just your opinion. As they say, opinions are like assholes -- everybody's got one. Yours is not necessarily any more valid than that of those who believe the hadith are authoritative. As a matter of fact, your opinion is less valid as there are more Islamic scholars who are smarter, better read, and have more experience than you who say the hadith are authoritative. And while you may claim expertise, the fact is that you have no credentials to demonstrate that you possess expertise. So from a logical perspective, we have one unvetted opinion against the opinion of a legion of bonafide experts. So you're just a kafir who knows dick pissing into the wind because you're stupid, arrogant, and unwise. The hadith, by the lights of the actual authorities of Islam, are authoritative. And nutjobs like you who say they are not are just that, nutjobs. Nutjobs whose opinion on the matter is worth nothing. So take your opinion and your kafir religion and shove it up your piehole.

(August 16, 2022 at 6:06 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(August 16, 2022 at 5:53 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: What evidence do you have that the quran is the revelation from god?
(not trying to cause upset, just curious why one piece of ancient text is believed and another one isn't)

The consistency of the Quran and the scenario it draws for life, death and the universe as a whole is the evidence.

For example, it's very ancient and not altered, an ancient copy is even held in Britain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham...manuscript

Then you have verses speak about the Big Bang:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-64215.html

and countless other verses.

I take that to be the evidence.

1. Thats’s NOT an ancient ‘copy’ of the Quran - it’s two leaves containing 63 verses. It’s an extremely important relic, but it’s not a ‘copy’.

2. Refuted, you’re just too pigheaded to understand.

Boru

(August 16, 2022 at 7:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(August 16, 2022 at 6:06 am)WinterHold Wrote: The consistency of the Quran and the scenario it draws for life, death and the universe as a whole is the evidence.

For example, it's very ancient and not altered, an ancient copy is even held in Britain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham...manuscript

Then you have verses speak about the Big Bang:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-64215.html

and countless other verses.

I take that to be the evidence.

1. Thats’s NOT an ancient ‘copy’ of the Quran - it’s two leaves containing 63 verses. It’s an extremely important relic, but it’s not a ‘copy’.

2. Refuted, you’re just too pigheaded to understand.

Boru

1- If the two leaves are not sufficient for you, here's another ancient Quran dating to the late 9th to mid 10th-century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Quran

Quote:The manuscript is thought to have contained 600 parchment folios made from sheepskin, which was commonly used because of the thinness of the finished product.

2-Not refuted.

If hadith aren't credible, then neither is the quran. The same process was used to create both items....and you either accept that process or you don't. We've been over this so many times.

As to the rest...only a silly islamist would think something from the tenth century is "ancient". Flash in the pan empires have a shallow pool of deep time and no present glory. You get the same shit with nutbars here, when considering the american revolution and subsequent decline of their great white culture. Islam is not ancient, it's not even classical. It's medieval. You're welcome.

Fuck, I'd be cagey about using that example in the first place. That's an early version of magic book...and it's already 3-4 hundred years removed from the alleged events? Christers got their shit together in a short 2 hundred.

(August 16, 2022 at 7:07 am)Angrboda Wrote:

(August 16, 2022 at 5:49 am)WinterHold Wrote: You see, the Hadith is not the teachings of Mohammed PBUH, but "reports claiming to narrate Mohammed's words".

Every report is called a single "Hadith".

A "Hadith book" is a book containing these reports. There are thousands of reports and volumes upon volumes of "reports claiming to narrate Mohammed's words".

So technically, I denounce them because I simply trust no historical report told before 1400 years. 

The reason you have "Sunni Islam" and "Shiite Islam" is these reports: some believe in a group of reports only, others believe in another group of reports.

While the Quran is the only admitted book to be the one and only revelation from God, while all the Hadiths are mere "reports" claiming that Mohammed said this or that in addition.

So I denounce the reports, and believe in the revelation only.

That's nice.  But that's just your opinion.  As they say, opinions are like assholes -- everybody's got one.  Yours is not necessarily any more valid than that of those who believe the hadith are authoritative.  As a matter of fact, your opinion is less valid as there are more Islamic scholars who are smarter, better read, and have more experience than you who say the hadith are authoritative.  And while you may claim expertise, the fact is that you have no credentials to demonstrate that you possess expertise.  So from a logical perspective, we have one unvetted opinion against the opinion of a legion of bonafide experts.  So you're just a kafir who knows dick pissing into the wind because you're stupid, arrogant, and unwise.  The hadith, by the lights of the actual authorities of Islam, are authoritative.  And nutjobs like you who say they are not are just that, nutjobs.  Nutjobs whose opinion on the matter is worth nothing.  So take your opinion and your kafir religion and shove it up your piehole.

Scholars worth nothing; do you think their commands are obligatory or something?
If their opinion is false, contradicts itself, then good bye: I am proud to be a kafir in their way.

The same process..was used to create magic book. Is magic book worth nothing? Are magic books commands obligatory? If it's opinion is false, or contradicts itself, then bye? You're an atheist now with the rest of us?

(August 16, 2022 at 5:58 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(August 15, 2022 at 11:27 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Muslims would not view your conversion as being sincere, and they may kill you over it.

Look at the comment of "Fake Messiah" to see the problem of narrations: with the Quran his case is closed before it even starts; but with the "reports claiming to narrate Mohammed's words", he has a chance to prolong the case until somebody directs his sight again at the Quran.

In a few words, why should I consider the Quran as being divinely inspired? Mt question is, by the way, sincere.

P.S. I have been diagnosed as being nearsighted and do have a prescription for glasses.

(August 16, 2022 at 8:44 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(August 16, 2022 at 5:58 am)WinterHold Wrote: Look at the comment of "Fake Messiah" to see the problem of narrations: with the Quran his case is closed before it even starts; but with the "reports claiming to narrate Mohammed's words", he has a chance to prolong the case until somebody directs his sight again at the Quran.

In a few words, why should I consider the Quran as being divinely inspired?  Mt question is, by the way, sincere.

In a few words; look at the universe then compare it to what the Quran is saying.
They call this "argument from design".