Quote:Dictators are untrustworthy. News flash. CNN breaking news. The more you know meme, etc, etc. Such deep insight there. I think we are all aware that dictators are untrustworthy, Helios. "Dictators are bad" is a very shallow argument and I don't think the obvious needs to be pointed out time and time again. Let's get past that. Dictators bad. Yes. We're all on the same page in that regard.

Lol, it's amazing how you keep missing the point ......

(September 5, 2022 at 7:19 pm)Helios Wrote:

Quote:And if you're a weak country bordering on a superpower, you might just have to compromise from time to time and you won't be able to get all you want.

Nope, Ukraine is a sovereign state that shouldn't have to be bullied by Russia or have to cater to them. Despite your Social Darwinist theory of international affairs.

I said I support treaties and I would abide by them. Stop trying to bunch me in with the America First 1940s non-interventionalists that didn't even want to intervene during WWII or wouldn't want to intervene anywhere no matter what.

(September 5, 2022 at 7:02 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(September 5, 2022 at 6:47 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Remaining silent when you think an ally is about to make a mistake is also wrong.  You're welcome to peddle your own brand of non-interventionism, but don't kid yourself into believing that's morally neutral.  Non-interventionism has historically been a polite expression of "fuck you, I've got mine.". And that's doubly true of the typical populist politics you often shill for.

Ukraine is not in NATO. They are in Russia's sphere of influence, and that sucks, but thems the rules. I didn't say we should never intervene. We have treaties and NATO for a reason.

Who's rules?  Russias?  Those your rules too?

(September 5, 2022 at 7:15 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(September 5, 2022 at 7:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's probably "just smart" to resist an invasion of your country if you can.

And if you're a weak country bordering on a superpower, you might just have to compromise from time to time and you won't be able to get all you want.

What superpower?  Second best army in ukraine.

Quote:I said I support treaties and I would abide by them. Stop trying to bunch me in with the America First 1940s non-interventionalists that didn't even want to intervene during WWII or wouldn't want to intervene anywhere no matter what.

Because you are just a lawyer version of 1940s non-interventionalists and your beliefs lead to the same ends ....

(September 5, 2022 at 5:41 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Again, Helios pretending he won without actually responding to any of my points. May as well have just posted a cute gif like usual.

And "you're either with us or you're against us." Where else have we heard that line of reasoning? NFL players kneeling to the national anthem, maybe? They got the same pushback. I know you may not like it much, but being a member of a Western democracy means you get to have an opinion on matters, and that doesn't make you a traitor to your country or your allies.

IA, I don’t doubt that the Ukrainians want peace. Thing is, I (and the rest of us) think that Ukraine wants their own sovereignty more. They don’t want to be a part of Russia. And Putin, on the other hand, is convinced that Ukraine belongs under Russian control. And we know this because Vladimir Putin has said so multiple times. you say you support treaties. Do you really think Putin will?

You think the French Resistance in WW2 just wanted to fight the Nazis just for the Hell of it? You think DeGaulle would have just taken the first offer of peace the Nazis would have given, especially if it meant that France would still be under the control of the Vichy Regime and the Third Reich? 

Yes,  you have the right to your own opinion (especially if it’s not a dangerous risk to the public health), but that freedom goes both ways. You have the right to insist that the Ukrainians should have just taken the peace offer with Russia, and the rest of us have the right to call bullshit on your argument. That’s how free speech works.

(September 5, 2022 at 7:27 pm)Helios Wrote:

Quote:I said I support treaties and I would abide by them. Stop trying to bunch me in with the America First 1940s non-interventionalists that didn't even want to intervene during WWII or wouldn't want to intervene anywhere no matter what.

Because you are just a legalist version of 1940s non-interventionalists and your beliefs lead to the same ends ....

What proof do you have that Putin would ever want to be Hitler-like on a similar grand scale? And even if Putin wanted to, you do know that Russia is struggling financially, right, and you do know what their armed forces looks like, right? Putin being Hitler is not possible. Russia would never have the means to accomplish anywhere near such a thing, and they're not going to go after a NATO country. You bring up how nukes are an impossibility, but you can't see how your fearmongering scenario is even more of an impossibility?

(September 5, 2022 at 7:22 pm)Helios Wrote:

Quote:Dictators are untrustworthy. News flash. CNN breaking news. The more you know meme, etc, etc. Such deep insight there. I think we are all aware that dictators are untrustworthy, Helios. "Dictators are bad" is a very shallow argument and I don't think the obvious needs to be pointed out time and time again. Let's get past that. Dictators bad. Yes. We're all on the same page in that regard.

Lol, it's amazing how you keep missing the point ......

I didn't miss any point. The Supreme leader of Iran wasn't fully trustworthy either, but Obama still made a deal with them. Sometimes in life, you take chances. This is the way the world works.

Quote:What proof do you have that Putin would ever want to be Hitler-like on a similar grand scale? And even if Putin wanted to, you do know that Russia is struggling financially, right, and you do know what their armed forces looks like, right? Putin being Hitler is not possible. Russia would never have the means to accomplish anywhere near such a thing, and they're not going to go after a NATO country. You bring up how nukes are an impossibility, but you can't see how your fearmongering scenario is even more of an impossibility?

Everyone thought Hitler couldn't be Hitler and look how wrong they were despite what pop history will tell you Germany wasn't ready for WW2 but they were able to conquer their neighbors all the same. Putin doesn't need to defeat Nato militarily as he's been trying to undermine the alliance for years and by themselves, the Eastern European states are easy prey. Hitler did the same thing to his neighbors well before he invaded them. So no my scenario that Putin wants to revive Russian imperialism is based on facts. Your delusions that Putin would risk nuclear annihilation are what's scaremongering here.

Quote:I didn't miss any point. The Supreme leader of Iran wasn't fully trustworthy either, but Obama still made a deal with them. Sometimes in life, you take chances. This is the way the world works.

Yes, you did miss the point. And comparing the Iran Nuclear deal to a Ukraine-Russia deal is simply moronic as the two instances are nothing alike. Iran was the weaker partner in that deal rallying on the US to keep its word. This is the total opposite.

(September 5, 2022 at 7:37 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 5, 2022 at 5:41 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Again, Helios pretending he won without actually responding to any of my points. May as well have just posted a cute gif like usual.

And "you're either with us or you're against us." Where else have we heard that line of reasoning? NFL players kneeling to the national anthem, maybe? They got the same pushback. I know you may not like it much, but being a member of a Western democracy means you get to have an opinion on matters, and that doesn't make you a traitor to your country or your allies.

IA, I don’t doubt that the Ukrainians want peace. Thing is, I (and the rest of us) think that Ukraine wants their own sovereignty more. They don’t want to be a part of Russia. And Putin, on the other hand, is convinced that Ukraine belongs under Russian control. And we know this because Vladimir Putin has said so multiple times. you say you support treaties. Do you really think Putin will?

You think the French Resistance in WW2 just wanted to fight the Nazis just for the Hell of it? You think DeGaulle would have just taken the first offer of peace the Nazis would have given, especially if it meant that France would still be under the control of the Vichy Regime and the Third Reich? 

Yes,  you have the right to your own opinion (especially if it’s not a dangerous risk to the public health), but that freedom goes both ways. You have the right to insist that the Ukrainians should have just taken the peace offer with Russia, and the rest of us have the right to call bullshit on your argument. That’s how free speech works.

President Zelenskyy said he didn't tell his people about the imminent invasion, because there would have been a mass exodus and Russia would have taken Ukraine in 3 days, which sounds a little bit like the opposite of wanting to stay and fight for your country, but who's to say I guess. I linked this story to Helios sometime in the past hour I think, if you're interested in looking at that.

I don't trust Putin, but sometimes you have to take leaps of faith, because you'll never know and get things accomplished if you don't at least try.

That's fine about what you said about the free speech, but not really relevant to this forum where there doesn't have to be free speech. And I'm not the one calling other people traitors for having a different opinion. That's others. Not me. And like I said, a logical case can be made for interference by the West in the war in Ukraine, but people should be honest about why that is. Like Boru pointed out a couple days ago, wars are about geopolitics, and the media talking points about the supposed reasoning for these wars can be ignored and brushed aside by any thinking person. Of course, I would have immediately been called a conspiracy theorist for pointing that out, but I'm glad Boru did so the heat is taken off of me a bit on that point.