(September 20, 2022 at 12:34 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(September 20, 2022 at 12:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You mean YOU never hear about extremist Jews. And only because you don’t pay attention - there are plenty of them.

Boru

I'll take your word for it. But how do you explain that all of my friends from Catholic school went to college? (something I envy them for, just as an aside) Is going to college really something stupid people do?

Since when is going to college a mark of intelligence? It not necessarily even a mark of being educated, just credentialed.

Boru

(September 20, 2022 at 4:34 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You say alot of stupid shit, the above is just another example of the same.  I think it's a shame if you've got some work on your bookshelf and have read it, and enjoyed it, and still managed to miss it..all the same.

Is that what's happened to you?

Al-Ghazali's book The incoherence is really not a cakewalk, so don't blame me if I didn't understand all the material there. I know enough though to tell there is nothing in this particular book speaking against arguing for qur'anic miracles.

Ironically, Al-Ghazali is one of the first leading thinkers that pointed out to scientific facts in the Qur'an. He has a very lengthy and famous paragraph in Jawahir al Qur'an quoting verses about planet motion, embryology, etc, and insisting that this is further indication of the divine source of the book.

(September 20, 2022 at 4:44 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:

(September 20, 2022 at 4:34 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You say alot of stupid shit, the above is just another example of the same.  I think it's a shame if you've got some work on your bookshelf and have read it, and enjoyed it, and still managed to miss it..all the same.

Is that what's happened to you?

Al-Ghazali's book The incoherence is really not a cakewalk, so don't blame me if I didn't understand all the material there. I know enough though to tell there is nothing in this particular book speaking against arguing for qur'anic miracles.

Ironically, Al-Ghazali is one of the first leading thinkers that pointed out to scientific facts in the Qur'an. He has a very lengthy and famous paragraph in Jawahir al Qur'an quoting verses about planet motion, embryology, etc, and insisting that this is further indication of the divine source of the book.

Still harping on that discredited rubbish, I see. 

Boru

As already commented upon, even great minds who recognize the mistakes of others have their own blindsides. He pointed out what he mistakenly believed were facts (that he..ofc...was misinformed by magic book about) as a way of highlighting the futility and irrelevance of disputes over other..as he saw them..lesser disputes.

So, I gather that is what happened to you, from that response.

There are figures like that in western history too. Guys who had profound things to say - between trying to measure how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

(September 20, 2022 at 4:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Still harping on that discredited rubbish, I see. 

Boru

He's one of the best minds in the history of Islamic thought. Show some minimal respect for these scholars, you don't have to agree with them for that.

And, my right hand to God you never opened a single book he wrote.

One of the best minds in islamic thought.

Is that a proclamation or a condemnation? If you transported the man to today, with all that we know now and his great mind, do you think he'd appreciate
the sentiment, or be disappointed by it's utterance as a historical fact?

(right hand, left hand, you're a liar to and about both gods and men, your word is worthless)

(September 20, 2022 at 4:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: As already commented upon, even great minds who recognize the mistakes of others have their own blindsides.  He pointed out what he mistakenly believed were facts (that he..ofc...was misinformed by magic book about) as a way of highlighting the futility and irrelevance of disputes over other..as he saw them..lesser disputes.

So, I gather that is what happened to you, from that response.

There are figures like that in western history too.  Guys who had profound things to say - between trying to measure how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

That's true, everybody makes mistakes. He actually supported philosophy at some point in his academic career, but ended up renouncing it completely and concluded that the Sufi path is the best mindset for a Muslim.

And yeah there are many great names in western philosophy too, they are the reason medieval islamic philosophers got infatuated with metaphysics in the first place.

(September 20, 2022 at 1:33 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:

(September 20, 2022 at 1:08 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Hmmm... the 'logical outcome' of Greek mathematics was something that needed to be changed. The Greeks, after the discovery of irrational ratios, had a split between numbers and geometry that was a significant hindrance to the development of mathematics. It was Islamic scholars that *started* the reunification of those two subjects (the simple example of a 'number line' is one that no Greek mathematician would have allowed and is due to an Islamic scholar). the Italian renaissance and subsequent enlightenment relied heavily on texts that were translated from Arabic and the ideas elaborated from those texts by Islamic scholars.

Al Ghazali was anything but quiet. His arguments were the prime ones that lead to the suppression of the philosophers and those willing to integrate 'foreign science' into their system.

Al Ghazali, in his famous the incoherence of the philosophers, grew tired of too much speculation about metaphysical issues related to religious belief, which is to say that many thinkers chose to invent their own philosophical system instead of relying on scripture (the Qur'an and the prophet's saying), his reaction was very understandable.

We know now that must philosophical arguments about divine foreknowledge, predestination, free will, whether the Qur'an is created or eternal, etc that were presented in medieval times are simply wrong -that's why you have modern philosophy of religion-. Al Ghazali understood that skirmishing about these issues is a dead end, and that the solution really is a correct understanding of the Qur'an, instead of trying to replace the Qur'an because you think you're a smart-ass

Exactly the characteristics of a fundamentalist: they think they have the one, true answer and nobody should debate it.

The reason religious debates are pointless is because there is no way to prove either side right OR wrong. They are *pure* speculation over nonsense claims. There is no 'correct' interpretation of the Quran or the Bible or the Bagavad Gita. There are *only* questions about what the original authors thought. But those authors were wrong in their ideas.

But that doesn't mean such discussion should be banned. It just means it should be done over good alcohol.

(September 20, 2022 at 5:01 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Exactly the characteristics of a fundamentalist: they think they have the one, true answer and nobody should debate it.

There actually are some topics/issues in Islamic faith or jurisprudence that only admit one true answer. You either accept the answer or you can no longer consider yourself a Muslim. Muslims take their religion seriously, call them "fundamentalists" or whatever you want. 

It's a bit like someone clearly showingyou  some math proof and that the result/theorem is necessarily true (given some assumptions), and then you get angry and say : what a fundamentalist way to see things ? can't this theorem be interpreted any other way ..? there must be some way to avoid the correctness of this proof

It's exactly the same thing in religion. Once you accept metaphysical assumptions about God's existence and the divine source of the Qur'an, you have to accept the logical consequences, you can't play fast and loose with the faith after that.

(September 20, 2022 at 5:01 pm)polymath257 Wrote: There is no 'correct' interpretation of the Quran 

There is, but I assume at this point that you don't really care to know more about the topic.

(September 20, 2022 at 4:51 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:

(September 20, 2022 at 4:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Still harping on that discredited rubbish, I see. 

Boru

He's one of the best minds in the history of Islamic thought. Show some minimal respect for these scholars, you don't have to agree with them for that.

And, my right hand to God you never opened a single book he wrote.

God may cut off that right hand of yours. You’d be surprised at the things I’ve read.

Boru