(September 28, 2022 at 8:33 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:25 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Well, there's at least three people here who are pretty well-informed about this stuff who are telling you that Russia is not this invincible beast of a nation and that this war will not end in their favor. Yet you would have Ukrainians unhappy with Russian occupation to simply move, because that country was strong enough to seize their homes by force?

Yeah, no. That's not how people work, and if Western aid is prolonging their fight to live as they wish, I say good. I'm sure you would say "Welp, okay" if someone came into your hometown and committed the atrocities the Russians have.

Me, I'd pick up a gun whether or not NATO was sending weapons, bullets, or tickets to Century 19's next premiere. Some things ae worth fighting for -- or against.

Let's assume Russia loses and abandons the whole shabagan, and Ukraine joins the West & NATO with much fanfare and celebrations.  Plan B, as I stated, would be to abandon START I & II and line the Russian & Ukrainian border with thermonuclear hydrogen weapons & missiles, which are much cheaper than the thousands of armored vehicles that the Ukrainians have destroyed.  Hopefully, such will allow the Ukrainians to feel "safer", now that they are part of NATO with its Article 5 protections.

Too bad there is no evidence NATO wants to put nukes there

(September 28, 2022 at 8:35 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 6:19 am)Jehanne Wrote: Umm, I am NOT justifying the behavior, rather, I am trying to give an explanation/reason for it.

As I've stated, Russia's invasion of Ukraine was, is and remains abhorrently evil. Individuals living in Ukraine would wanted to be part of Russia could and should have simply moved!

I just explained to you why your explanation is no explanation at all.
Poland invaded Russia twice, successfully, and you are arguing the Russia is wary of everyone else.

Lots of nations have invaded Russia, all the way to Moscow. They didn't succeed, in the end. What's your point?

(September 28, 2022 at 8:35 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:32 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Out of forty+ million ... have you thought this through?

I don't know the exact figure.  Such may not be known.  I am only saying that such has happened.

A tiny fraction of the population

(September 28, 2022 at 8:36 am)Helios Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:33 am)Jehanne Wrote: Let's assume Russia loses and abandons the whole shabagan, and Ukraine joins the West & NATO with much fanfare and celebrations.  Plan B, as I stated, would be to abandon START I & II and line the Russian & Ukrainian border with thermonuclear hydrogen weapons & missiles, which are much cheaper than the thousands of armored vehicles that the Ukrainians have destroyed.  Hopefully, such will allow the Ukrainians to feel "safer", now that they are part of NATO with its Article 5 protections.

Too bad there is no evidence NATO wants to put nukes there

I agree. I think that the entire war was stupid.

(September 28, 2022 at 6:29 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 2:45 am)Deesse23 Wrote: There is a certain area of grey between accepting something and invading another country, dont you think?
Plus: Whom is NATO threatening? Did you ever bother to read the paragraphs of the treaty? NATO is simply unable to threaten anyone, since it is a defensive alliance, with everyone responding as soon as someone is attacked.

NATO is only a threat to you if you intend to threaten (or even start one) war with one of its members, but dont wanna deal with the rest.....oh, wait 

Oh, I agree, and so, no objections if Russia would decide to locate a thousand ICBMs in Cuba?? How about if they decide to abandon the START I & II treaties and build up their nuclear stockpiles to 50 or 60K of hydrogen bombs? What if they construct a set of dozens of nuclear launch platforms in international waters a few hundred miles off the coasts of the United States??

Your logic is that whatever NATO does is okay, as long as they do not fire the first savo; of course, no military analyst or commander in NATO thinks this way.

NATO, a multinational and defensive alliance of democratic countries
Is not equal to
Russia, an expansionist dictatorship

Your false equivalencies always fail horribly, and you seem unable to learn why.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:37 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:35 am)Deesse23 Wrote: I just explained to you why your explanation is no explanation at all.
Poland invaded Russia twice, successfully, and you are arguing the Russia is wary of everyone else.

Lots of nations have invaded Russia, all the way to Moscow.  They didn't succeed, in the end.  What's your point?

Invading Moscow isn't really a victory considering how vast Russia is and none of that comes close to justifying Russia's paranoia

(September 28, 2022 at 8:37 am)Helios Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:35 am)Jehanne Wrote: I don't know the exact figure.  Such may not be known.  I am only saying that such has happened.

A tiny fraction of the population

If a United States citizen wants to male the insane decision of leaving the United States to emigrate to Russia, such is possible and does happen.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:39 am)Helios Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:37 am)Jehanne Wrote: Lots of nations have invaded Russia, all the way to Moscow.  They didn't succeed, in the end.  What's your point?

Invading Moscow isn't really a victory considering how vast Russia is and none of that comes close to justifying Russia's paranoia

With me you're pounding on an open door. I am saying that this is how they think, not how I think.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:33 am)Jehanne Wrote: Let's assume Russia loses and abandons the whole shabagan, and Ukraine joins the West & NATO with much fanfare and celebrations.  Plan B, as I stated, would be to abandon START I & II and line the Russian & Ukrainian border with thermonuclear hydrogen weapons & missiles, which are much cheaper than the thousands of armored vehicles that the Ukrainians have destroyed.  Hopefully, such will allow the Ukrainians to feel "safer", now that they are part of NATO with its Article 5 protections.

Once Russia loses, and I believe they will, Ukraine will either join NATO, or enter a treaty relationship with it, so that any future conflict will draw NATO in automatically. That is deterrence. Russia doesn't need to line the Ukrainian border with missiles, they have plenty in silos already that can be reprogrammed with Ukrainian targets as options.

I bet Ukraine will feel safer under NATO's umbrella after this Russian depredation. It's as if the Russians have never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences. (cf. Finland and Sweden as well)

(September 28, 2022 at 8:39 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:37 am)Helios Wrote: A tiny fraction of the population

If a United States citizen wants to male the insane decision of leaving the United States to emigrate to Russia, such is possible and does happen.

That's not really a counter