(September 28, 2022 at 8:35 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:32 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Out of forty+ million ... have you thought this through?

I don't know the exact figure.  Such may not be known.  I am only saying that such has happened.

There's a lot you're willing to discuss without knowing much.

There are 7.5 million Ukrainian refugees from this war. Your think they should be fine with being uprooted and cast to the wind so you can sleep easy?

(September 28, 2022 at 8:40 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:39 am)Helios Wrote: Invading Moscow isn't really a victory considering how vast Russia is and none of that comes close to justifying Russia's paranoia

With me you're pounding on an open door.  I am saying that this is how they think, not how I think.

Either way, it's irrational ...

(September 28, 2022 at 8:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:33 am)Jehanne Wrote: Let's assume Russia loses and abandons the whole shabagan, and Ukraine joins the West & NATO with much fanfare and celebrations.  Plan B, as I stated, would be to abandon START I & II and line the Russian & Ukrainian border with thermonuclear hydrogen weapons & missiles, which are much cheaper than the thousands of armored vehicles that the Ukrainians have destroyed.  Hopefully, such will allow the Ukrainians to feel "safer", now that they are part of NATO with its Article 5 protections.

Once Russia loses, and I believe they will, Ukraine will either join NATO, or enter a treaty relationship with it, so that any future conflict will draw NATO in automatically. That is deterrence. Russia doesn't need to line the Ukrainian border with missiles, they have plenty in silos already that can be reprogrammed with Ukrainian targets as options.

I bet Ukraine will feel safer under NATO's umbrella after this Russian depredation. It's as if the Russians have never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences. (cf. Finland and Sweden as well)

If they choose to place nuclear missiles on their border, who's to tell them otherwise??

(September 28, 2022 at 8:37 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:35 am)Deesse23 Wrote: I just explained to you why your explanation is no explanation at all.
Poland invaded Russia twice, successfully, and you are arguing the Russia is wary of everyone else.

Lots of nations have invaded Russia, all the way to Moscow. They didn't succeed, in the end. What's your point?

Your point was that Russia is wary to the west, because it has been invaded. I pointed out that the only successful invade was Poland, and Russia is not concerned about Poland at at.

It's becoming obvious that this is not a 2 was conversation. I pointed out that Poland successfully invaded Russia TWICE, and you reply by starting that no invasion was successful. You clearly are not absorbing what you are being told

As if Russia hat other reasons to invade than fear of being invaded itself.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:46 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Once Russia loses, and I believe they will, Ukraine will either join NATO, or enter a treaty relationship with it, so that any future conflict will draw NATO in automatically. That is deterrence. Russia doesn't need to line the Ukrainian border with missiles, they have plenty in silos already that can be reprogrammed with Ukrainian targets as options.

I bet Ukraine will feel safer under NATO's umbrella after this Russian depredation. It's as if the Russians have never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences. (cf. Finland and Sweden as well)

If they choose to place nuclear missiles on their border, who's to tell them otherwise??

Again just because Russia is going to act irrationally is not a reason not to do something

Meanwhile, regarding those ten-foot-tall Russian juggernauts:

Quote:Russian forces are reportedly committing newly-mobilized Western Military District (WMD) men to the Kherson and Kharkiv Oblast frontlines without prior training. A mobilized servicemember of the 1st Tank Regiment of an unspecified unit recorded a video plea stating that his unit will not receive training prior to deploying to Kherson Oblast on September 29.[6] RFE/RL’s Mark Krutov geolocated the serviceman’s surroundings to the 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division’s base in Kalininets, Moscow Oblast. ISW previously reported that Russian forces have committed elements of the 147th Artillery Regiment of the 2nd Motor Rifle Division to Kherson Oblast in late August, and are likely attempting to reinforce units in the south (that have operated in Kyiv and Kharkiv Oblasts) in short periods with untrained, newly-mobilized men.[7] Elements of the 2nd Motor Rifle Division previously based out of Izyum asked to leave their positions on August 30 due to moral exhaustion.[8] Russian opposition outlet Mediazona also reported that mobilized men of the 237th Tank Regiment of the WMD’s 3rd Motor Rifle Division based out of Valuyki are deploying to Donbas frontlines after only one day of training.[9] ISW cannot independently verify Mediazona’s report, but the 237th Regiment also operated around Izyum since late March.[10] Mobilized men with a day or two of training are unlikely to meaningfully reinforce Russian positions affected by Ukrainian counteroffensives in the south and east.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgro...ct-updates

(September 28, 2022 at 8:46 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:37 am)Jehanne Wrote: Lots of nations have invaded Russia, all the way to Moscow. They didn't succeed, in the end. What's your point?

Your point was that Russia is wary to the west, because it has been invaded. I pointed out that the only successful invade was Poland, and Russia is not concerned about Poland at at.

It's becoming obvious that this is not a 2 was conversation. I pointed out that Poland successfully invaded Russia TWICE, and you reply by starting that no invasion was successful. You clearly are not absorbing what you are being told

As if Russia hat other reasons to invade than fear of being invaded itself.

The forces of Napoleon & Hitler both made it to Moscow. But, again, I am saying that this is how (some) of them think, not how I think.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:49 am)Helios Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:46 am)Jehanne Wrote: If they choose to place nuclear missiles on their border, who's to tell them otherwise??

Again just because Russia is going to act irrationally is not a reason not to do something

Just want to make sure that what we do is the right thing. Do you believe that President Biden should commit United States troops to fight alongside the Ukrainians? If not, why not?

Since the most widely known classic blunder is "never get involved in a land war in Asia,"  it's safe to say Russia did not mount the current offensive out of fear of invasion.

(September 28, 2022 at 9:23 am)Ranjr Wrote: Since the most widely known classic blunder is "never get involved in a land war in Asia,"  it's safe to say Russia did not mount the current offensive out of fear of invasion.

I suspect that it was mainly a land grab, and is absolutely shameful, in the same category as Manifest Destiny.