Quote:The Basic Principles of War Propaganda

Too bad this isn't a propaganda war at least on the Ukraine side.

Quote:1. We don't want war, we are only defending ourselves!

In other words, what Russia's doing with its BS is that NATO poses any threat to Russia or Intends hostility with Russia. Ukraine, by contrast, did nothing to ask for this other than act on its right as a sovereign state which Russia punished them for with an invasion. Ukraine is defending itself period.

Quote:2. Our adversary is solely responsible for this war!

One side is solely responsible for this war. Russia invaded Ukraine. Therefore all the responsibility rests with them and only them.

Quote:3. Our adversary's leader is inherently evil and resembles the devil

Vladimir Putin is a ruthless autocrat who has political opposition imprisoned or murdered and who has enriched himself at the expense of his own people and has targeted minority groups for persecution (The LGBT community for example) and has allowed black ops mercenary groups to commit war crimes across the globe. While Ukraine's leadership are not total saints they aren't even close to Putin on the morality scale. So this is simply a false equvicattion 

Quote:4. We are defending a noble cause, not our particular interests!

In this case, NATO's only interest is stopping Russian expansionism and Ukraine is not becoming part of Russia. I would say those are noble goals.

Quote:5. The enemy is purposefully committing atrocities; if we are making mistakes this happens without intention

So far this seems to be the case. If you listen to hacked Russian Radio there are not quite about their eagerness to commit atrocities. As for Ukraine, they have been surprisedly restrained in their response so far. I hope it stays that way.

Quote:6. The enemy makes use of illegal weapons

Russia has used a number of weapons banned under international law. That's not propaganda.  that's a fact.

Quote:7. We suffer few losses, the enemy's losses are considerable

Again that's simply a fact. It's the reason Russia is so desperate new recruits and Ukraine isn't.

Quote:8. Recognized intellectuals and artists support our cause

They do support the cause of Ukraine. Why wouldn't they? Do I need to give a list?

Quote:9. Our cause is sacred

I'm sure many Ukrainians think defending their home from invasion is sacred. I wouldn't go that far though.

Quote:10. Whoever casts doubt on our propaganda helps the enemy and is a traitor

No one has argued this. It just seems like every single person you prop up on this thread is either a shill or a useful idiot. Don't blame me for pointing it out when I see it.

Quote:-- based on Arthur Ponsenby's 1928 book Falsehood in Wartime

Looks like nothing has changed.

I think you might want to update your choice of thinkers . Because this conflict doesn't fit this mold (most conflicts don't)

(October 24, 2022 at 12:53 am)Belacqua Wrote: The Basic Principles of War Propaganda

1. We don't want war, we are only defending ourselves!
2. Our adversary is solely responsible for this war!
3. Our adversary's leader is inherently evil and resembles the devil
4. We are defending a noble cause, not our particular interests!
5. The enemy is purposefully committing atrocities; if we are making mistakes this happens without intention
6. The enemy makes use of illegal weapons
7. We suffer few losses, the enemy's losses are considerable
8. Recognized intellectuals and artists support our cause
9. Our cause is sacred
10. Whoever casts doubt on our propaganda helps the enemy and is a traitor

-- based on Arthur Ponsenby's 1928 book Falsehood in Wartime

Looks like nothing has changed.

Beccs' Principles of Propaganda:

1. It's not propaganda if it's factual!

Not sure how true this image/link is but it still looks dayum impressive.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/viral-vi...D=ref_fark

Cheers.

Not at work.

(October 24, 2022 at 2:19 am)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(October 24, 2022 at 12:53 am)Belacqua Wrote: The Basic Principles of War Propaganda

1. We don't want war, we are only defending ourselves!
2. Our adversary is solely responsible for this war!
3. Our adversary's leader is inherently evil and resembles the devil
4. We are defending a noble cause, not our particular interests!
5. The enemy is purposefully committing atrocities; if we are making mistakes this happens without intention
6. The enemy makes use of illegal weapons
7. We suffer few losses, the enemy's losses are considerable
8. Recognized intellectuals and artists support our cause
9. Our cause is sacred
10. Whoever casts doubt on our propaganda helps the enemy and is a traitor

-- based on Arthur Ponsenby's 1928 book Falsehood in Wartime

Looks like nothing has changed.

Beccs' Principles of Propaganda:

1.  It's not propaganda if it's factual!

Boru’s Inversion Of Becc’s Principle

Simply because it emanates from the Ministry For Propaganda doesn’t make it untrue.

Boru

Interesting read here on "disaster capitalism" and what powerful outsiders have planned for Ukraine's economy.

https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/chartbo...ithout-the

As always, the money people know how to turn any crisis to their advantage. Ukraine's economy is in terrible condition, and, as always, the international organizations that have sway over weak national governments impose the same kinds of conditions. Protections for labor are being stripped away. Foreign capital will come in to take over local industries.

It's the same austerity-for-you and wealth-extraction-for-me that always happens.

In fact this is quite similar to what happened under Yeltsin when the USSR fell apart. By imposing "shock therapy" on the former CCCP's economy, millions were impoverished while the well-connected few became wealthy. State industries were privatized, creating the famous "oligarchs." One of the reasons that Putin is popular at home is that he took many state industries semi-public again, lessened the power of the oligarchs, and helped to stabilize the economy. Currently despite the war Russia's economy is strong, the Ruble is strong, and various countries (Turkey, China, India) are going ahead with plans of cooperation.

If the IMF and the others who will pull Ukraine's strings in the near future do to Ukraine what they did to Russia under Yeltsin, it could cause real hardship for the people of Ukraine. One difference between Yeltsin's Russia and Ukraine: Russia didn't have a strong history of Nazism, or an active and popular Nazi party. If Ukraine goes into such austerity that the people are suffering, and the Banderites [aka Nazis] offer simple solutions, that could be bad.

And this is just nonsense....

I mean I would spend time refuting each claim in the rant and bring up Adam Tooze's links to Russia and Russian apologists. But at this point, It just feels redundant...

But I will refute some of the nonsense above.


1. The Soviet economy was fucked either way the shock doctrine had  minimal impact on an already dead economy and the oligarchs were going to take over anyway (considering the Soviet Union was already essentially an Oligarchy) and The Soviets are to blame eastern Europes woes due to chronic mismanagement (Chornobyl anyone)


2. Russia's economy is not strong it is stalling its slow and steady collapse. But it's not strong.


3. Putin is not popular an image created by Russian propaganda is popular and that's based on the population's ignorance. But you see cracks in the facade when you watch street interviews and you see the person questioned seem shocked when you tell them some fact about Putin that is less than perfect or ask them a controversial question involving Putin. Then watch them clam up or tell you they don't want to get into trouble. That's not popularity that's Stalin saying that if you don't clap long enough you are dead, And Putin has never stood up to the Oliarches because he is one and he lives off the same plundered wealth they do.


4. The Banderites may have been fascists but they were no less evil than the Soviets they fought against. Who were monsters of a different breed, And in Russia, they are treated like heroes. So I wouldn't be so quick to condemn Ukraine for lionizing some bad people.

Ukraine is evil for loving  Bandera but Russia is good for loving Stalin?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-from-t...to-stalin/

At this point you are just feeding a troll.

I thought we already covered this ground, and agreed to assume that the illuminati and the lizard people and global jewry, while we're at it, were all looking to use the conflict in ukraine to enrich themselves. Never got an answer to the burning question in that event, though. If so...so what?

That's the real puzzler to me, not that people are dipshits about the war in ukraine, but that the dipshittery doesn't go anywhere.

(October 22, 2022 at 12:17 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: One should not underestimate the intelligence of “medium level of intelligence” just as one should not overestimate the goodness of “medium level of intelligence”.    You think they are merely fooled.   But they may simply be more malevolent, or sympathico with malevolence, than you are willing to continence.

Of course there is always this “human nature” element. But what I am saying is that propaganda works on this human nature element. Just like hypnosis, it will evoke you primal fears, your fear of the unknown, your aspirations for an earthly well-being, your most basic human emotions and than it combines it with some form of rationally acceptable belief like “anti-immigration policy” As an example I want to remind you of a F.N. (Marrie LePen’s party) propaganda picture that showed some middle aged French woman sleeping in her car with the slogan on top of it saying “…. Sleeps in her car while the government is spending money to house African Migrants”. And the journalists making the news where not able to identify this … who was sleeping in her car because she reportedly had no access to public housing.
 
So yes, it has to be there in the first place. But propaganda will find it, amplify it, turn it into a mob and use it for its own purpose (or that’s the main idea of the science behind it)