(November 3, 2022 at 4:38 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 3, 2022 at 3:34 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Why do you believe that the words of Jesus exist in any extant document?  Jesus never wrote anything, as he, like his immediate followers, was illiterate.

What do you base that on? Simply because Jesus didn’t write doesn’t necessarily mean that he couldn’t write. 

While the overall literacy rate in Roman Judea/Palestine was probably around 3%, that of adult males Jews in cities and towns has been estimated to be as high as 20-25%.

Boru

I base it upon what is recorded in the Gospels, namely, Mark, Chapter 1.

How is it that Paul's letters survived?

Dawn

(November 3, 2022 at 5:14 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 3, 2022 at 4:38 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: What do you base that on? Simply because Jesus didn’t write doesn’t necessarily mean that he couldn’t write. 

While the overall literacy rate in Roman Judea/Palestine was probably around 3%, that of adult males Jews in cities and towns has been estimated to be as high as 20-25%.

Boru

I base it upon what is recorded in the Gospels, namely, Mark, Chapter 1.

How is it that Paul's letters survived?

Dawn

There's nothing in Mark Ch 1 that says or implies that Jesus was illiterate.

Boru

(November 3, 2022 at 6:09 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 3, 2022 at 5:14 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I base it upon what is recorded in the Gospels, namely, Mark, Chapter 1.

How is it that Paul's letters survived?

Dawn

There's nothing in Mark Ch 1 that says or implies that Jesus was illiterate.

Boru

It's an inference.  Mark is the earliest Gospel and it states that Jesus "passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen", which implies that he and they were of the same social class.

Fact is that 7 authentic letters of Paul survive and nothing from Jesus does, which implies that Jesus wrote nothing, likely, because he could not write.

Dawn

There's a simpler explanation than illiteracy. Jesus is a composite character created by the literate authors who invented his many selves.

(November 3, 2022 at 6:29 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 3, 2022 at 6:09 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: There's nothing in Mark Ch 1 that says or implies that Jesus was illiterate.

Boru

It's an inference.  Mark is the earliest Gospel and it states that Jesus "passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen", which implies that he and they were of the same social class.

Fact is that 7 authentic letters of Paul survive and nothing from Jesus does, which implies that Jesus wrote nothing, likely, because he could not write.

Dawn

Virtually everything we know about Socrates comes from Plato and Xenophon - Socrates wrote nothing. Can we infer from this that Socrates was illiterate?

Boru

(November 3, 2022 at 6:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There's a simpler explanation than illiteracy.  Jesus is a composite character created by the literate authors who invented his many selves.

Agreed. I’m playing along with the notion that Jesus was an actual person. But even as a composite character, there’s noting in the Gospels or the Epistles to suggest he was illiterate.

Even if there was a living, breathing, pooping flesh-and-blood Jesus, he may very well have been illiterate. But to state it as fact is simply an assertion, nothing more.

Boru

Boru: the Bible mentions these things, but to take these things out of the context of the standards of the time and judge them based on how they would be regarded today distorts the significance of everything, so i believe that is a spiritual interpretation.

for Genesis 3, the conclusion makes sense if we see God as a completely external force. but if one acknowledges even a few of the workings mentioned in Ephesians 4:6, the conclusion can be completely different even if the events were all taken literally.

one thing that should be mentioned is that the Bible says that God is a spirit. i think this emphasizes that God is not a form or category, but is accessed through the form or category.

i think a helpful way to understand the working of God is to think of God as similar to inevitability. inevitability is all-knowing, all-powerful, always in control, always right, etc. but it can also be direct or completely unintrusive: of course, it could allow all things to take their natural (as it seems to us) courses and then say at the end "It was all part of my plan." this roundabout tone of inevitable control is mentioned often in regards to God, and Christ echoes the same tone.

for 2 Thessalonians, i believe this is mentioning, in the same roundabout tone, how those that knowingly do evil will be punished (which is a just thing), but the exact way this will come to pass isnt being spelled out.

i think this is the last post for today. i plan to check tommorow.

(November 3, 2022 at 6:56 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 3, 2022 at 6:29 pm)Jehanne Wrote: It's an inference.  Mark is the earliest Gospel and it states that Jesus "passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen", which implies that he and they were of the same social class.

Fact is that 7 authentic letters of Paul survive and nothing from Jesus does, which implies that Jesus wrote nothing, likely, because he could not write.

Dawn

Virtually everything we know about Socrates comes from Plato and Xenophon - Socrates wrote nothing. Can we infer from this that Socrates was illiterate?

Boru

No, of course not! But, Plato, in recounting his Teacher, mentions him by name. Nothing at all similar for Jesus, who, supposedly, "taught with great authority".

Dawn

(November 3, 2022 at 7:11 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 3, 2022 at 6:56 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Virtually everything we know about Socrates comes from Plato and Xenophon - Socrates wrote nothing. Can we infer from this that Socrates was illiterate?

Boru

No, of course not!  But, Plato, in recounting his Teacher, mentions him by name.  Nothing at all similar for Jesus, who, supposedly, "taught with great authority".

Dawn

Are you seriously contending that the Gospels don't mention Jesus by name??

Boru

(November 3, 2022 at 7:35 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 3, 2022 at 7:11 pm)Jehanne Wrote: No, of course not!  But, Plato, in recounting his Teacher, mentions him by name.  Nothing at all similar for Jesus, who, supposedly, "taught with great authority".

Dawn

Are you seriously contending that the Gospels don't mention Jesus by name??

Boru

Of course, they do! But, none of them are written by anyone who knew Jesus personally; nowhere do they even claim that.

Dawn