Looks like we've found someone as idiotic as Kanye.

And he brings a mountain of forum  revisionist history.....

(December 18, 2022 at 1:22 pm)Helios Wrote: And he brings a mountain of forum  revisionist history.....

So why is racism against white people not bad again? Because we have systemic power. Jewish people have some systemic power in the record business over black artists, therefore racism against Jews is not bad, right? Why does the same logic not apply here? Fill me in. White people are not inherently bad, nor are Jewish people. Like Vaush says, it's capitalism that causes record execs to be greedy. It has f all to do with them being Jewish. I'm just asking for some consistency from you here. We're coming at this too much with emotion here and leaving logic to the side. Boru, for instance, wants to put all racist people in prison. Well, that's the majority of planet earth. The majority of humans are either racist or tribal. We have to learn to live together, because over half of all of humanity going to prison does not exactly sound like the most well thought out plan to me.

Quote:So why is racism against white people not bad again? Because we have systemic power.

No one said Racism against whites was fine. So this is a strawman and yes whites have  systemic power

Quote:Jewish people have some systemic power in the record business over black artists, therefore racism against Jews is not bad, right? 

Nope because Kanye has aligned himself with White systematic power with is still more powerful than the Jews. So even by this logic Kanye still has more power.

Quote:Why does the same logic not apply here? Fill me in. 

See above  

Quote:White people are not inherently bad, nor are Jewish people.

No one said otherwise.

Quote:Like Vaush says, it's capitalism that causes record execs to be greedy. It has f all to do with them being Jewish. 

Yes and?

Quote:I'm just asking for some consistency from you here.

You have yet to show any inconsistency.

Quote: We're coming at this too much with emotion here and leaving logic to the side.

Well, you certainly are.

Quote:Boru, for instance, wants to put all racist people in prison. 

Yeah, I'm going to need receipts for that claim...

Quote:Well, that's the majority of planet earth.

Because it's the  majority is not an excuse 

Quote: The majority of humans are either racist or tribal.

Because it's the  majority is not an excuse 

Quote: We have to learn to live together, because over half of all of humanity going to prison does not exactly sound like the most well thought out plan to me.

Again I'm going to need receipts for the claim anyone wants to jail all racists and no we can't all learn to live together and tolerating people who aren't capable of living with other people is not a well-thought-through plan either. 


So honestly this is a very silly comment overall....

(December 18, 2022 at 2:05 pm)Helios Wrote:

Quote:So why is racism against white people not bad again? Because we have systemic power.

No one said Racism against whites was fine. So this is a strawman and yes whites have  systemic power

Quote:Jewish people have some systemic power in the record business over black artists, therefore racism against Jews is not bad, right? 

Nope because Kanye has aligned himself with White systematic power with is still more powerful than the Jews. So even by this logic Kanye still has more power.

Quote:Why does the same logic not apply here? Fill me in. 

See above  

Quote:White people are not inherently bad, nor are Jewish people.

No one said otherwise.

Quote:Like Vaush says, it's capitalism that causes record execs to be greedy. It has f all to do with them being Jewish. 

Yes and?

Quote:I'm just asking for some consistency from you here.

You have yet to show any inconsistency.

Quote: We're coming at this too much with emotion here and leaving logic to the side.

Well, you certainly are.

Quote:Boru, for instance, wants to put all racist people in prison. 

Yeah, I'm going to need receipts for that claim...

Quote:Well, that's the majority of planet earth.

Because it's the  majority is not an excuse 

Quote: The majority of humans are either racist or tribal.

Because it's the  majority is not an excuse 

Quote: We have to learn to live together, because over half of all of humanity going to prison does not exactly sound like the most well thought out plan to me.

Again I'm going to need receipts for the claim anyone wants to jail all racists and no we can't all learn to live together and tolerating people who aren't capable of living with other people is not a well-thought-through plan either. 


So honestly this is a very silly comment overall....

The claim has been made by activists that blacks can't be racist to whites because of systemic power. This is a dog whistle to say "be as racist to whites as you want. They deserve it."

So if Ye didn't align himself with white supremacists and just did the anti-Semitism, would that make it any less racist? People who are anti-white and not aligned with white supremacists shoot up synagogues too. Yes, systemic power is extremely important to talk about, but it's not the be all end all. Jewish people can still be shot up by people with less systemic power than them, and they're still just as much dead, whether they were killed by systemic oppression or not.

You consider it a silly comment for me to say that over 4 billion people should not be jailed for racism and tribalism? And I didn't say anyone had an excuse to be racist, but mass incarceration has never solved the problems of a society. Time is the trick. No matter how bad things look to you right now, people are overall becoming less bigoted. Look at the acceptance of gay and trans people in the West. 70 % in the US now accept gay marriage. In 2004 it was only 31 % that supported marriage equality. That's an insane leap in such a short amount of time. I know you're into the doomerism and worried about Nazi fascists at your doorstep, but look at the positive happening as well.

My apologies to Boru. What he actually posted was that white supremacists should have all of their rights taken away and that they should be forced to have a vasectamy or have their tubes tied it seems, or have their children taken away at birth, which is actually just as bad as putting them in prison or even worse, if you think about it.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-63236-page-119.html

Quote:If they change, they wouldn’t be sub-human any more and I’d be happy to re-admit them to the ranks of humanity. Until then, laws should be passed prohibiting them from voting, owning businesses, or producing offspring. They should be barred from all professions and most trades, and should not be allowed to unionize. In other words, they should be treated EXACTLY they way they demand non-whites be treated.

Please don’t presume to tell me what I think, you insufferable twatwaffle.

Boru

(December 18, 2022 at 4:17 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: I was pretty much called racist last time I brought up Kyrie and the black Hebrew Israelites and asked by Nudge, what about the white Hebrew Israelites? It's good that this issue is finally being talked about out in the open now. I believe this Ye thing was encouraged and spurred on by the religion of intersectionality, which claims that you can't be racist to people who are wealthier than you as a group AKA Jewish people, because you have no "systemic power" over them. It's nice that the board here seems to finally be tossing that idea aside, and we can mostly all agree that what Ye said was bad and racist, regardless of him holding this position technically because of white supremacy (and some of those white people happen to be Jewish as well) that has negatively affected people of his skin tone and caused him to hold a grudge against those groups of people. Yes, it's bad that white people and white Christians and white Jewish people have committed sins against other races, but that doesn't excuse Ye's rhetoric.

Criticism of the ADL is warranted I believe because the ADL is extremely anti-Muslim and majorly anti-free speech, so they bring much of the hate on themselves and they are harmful to their own Jewish people by being a bigoted organization who has chosen to go to war with Muslim politicians like Ilhan Omar with their despicable rhetoric and they are beyond irredeemable as an organization, so yeah, having a Jewish supremacist organization like the ADL go around shitting on Muslims and trying to censor everyone, that's only going to give us more people like Ye. When you refuse to criticize your own, that is a problem, and the ADL has not faced nearly enough backlash. Do people at record companies deserve criticism? Sure, but don't make it about their Jewishness. Power corrupts anyone. This has nothing to do with the essence of Jewishness, or Judaism, and most of them in the States are atheists anyhow.

Now onto my defense of Ye. He should be able to say whatever he wants. Continue on, Ye. I love that you have this right to speak. More podcasts from Ye and Nick Fuentes, please. Is he having a mental breakdown? Probably, but rumours say Ye has talked about admiring Hitler for years now. You could say it's a positive that the GOP is distancing itself from Trump more now finally because of this all, but it's really a negative because Trump wasn't going to win the general anyhow, and DeSantis is the fav over the Dems.

(bold mine)

He IS allowed to say whatever he wants. He can say whatever he wants, whenever he wants, to whomever he wants. Who is silencing Kayne? Has he been arrested for saying things? Has he been tried, convicted, fined or jailed for what he says? Has somebody torn his tongue out and it didn't make the news?

Boru

Quote:The claim has been made by activists that blacks can't be racist to whites because of systemic power. 

Nope 

Quote:This is a dog whistle to say "be as racist to whites as you want. They deserve it."

Nope

Quote:So if Ye didn't align himself with white supremacists and just did the anti-Semitism, would that make it any less racist?

Kanye isn't speaking as a black person he's speaking for the party of white systematic power so he still has more power than the Jews. By the logic of racism = systematic power.

Quote:People who are anti-white and not aligned with white supremacists shoot up synagogues too.

Like?  and even if that were true one of those people isn't Kanye who has aligned with said power. 

Quote:Yes, systemic power is extremely important to talk about, but it's not the be all end all.

It pretty much is as far as this topic goes.

Quote:Jewish people can still be shot up by people with less systemic power than them, and they're still just as much dead, whether they were killed by systemic oppression or not.

Irrelevant really. In Kanye's case he's still speaking for a position of alignment with white systematic power by the logic of racism = systematic power.

Quote:You consider it a silly comment for me to say that over 4 billion people should not be jailed for racism and tribalism?

Nope, this whole rant of yours is silly frankly.

Quote:And I didn't say anyone had an excuse to be racist, but mass incarceration has never solved the problems of a society.

And neither has pretending racists are reasonable people who can do as they please.

Quote:Time is the trick. No matter how bad things look to you right now, people are overall becoming less bigoted.

Nope, you can go from a society that's less racist to one that's more so. Pretending tolerance is some inevitability is foolish because it can and has gone the other way. 

Quote:Look at the acceptance of gay and trans people in the West. 70 % in the US now accept gay marriage. In 2004 it was only 31 % that supported marriage equality. That's an insane leap in such a short amount of time. I know you're into the doomerism and worried about Nazi fascists at your doorstep, but look at the positive happening as well.

Yup and that could easily reverse. The Nazis are very real and pretending in this Liberal notion of the inevitability of good is just what leads to their victory. It breeds compliance. 

Quote:My apologies to Boru. What he actually posted was that white supremacists should have all of their rights taken away and that they should be forced to have a vasectamy or have their tubes tied it seems, or have their children taken away at birth, which is actually just as bad as putting them in prison or even worse, if you think about it.

Why should White Supremacists have the rights they would deny other people? By the way, being a white supremacist is more than just being racist and frankly much worst.

So yet another silly comment....

So let's sum this silliness up, shall we? 

1. No one is saying racism against whites is good and saying otherwise is silly. 


2. There is no inconsistency in pointing out that by the logic of systematic power= racism Kanye's racism is still racism as he aligned himself with the white power structure. 


3. The fact violence can be carried about by groups is not a refutation of systematic power= racism


4. Tolerance is not a matter of time it requires both struggle and vigilance against regressive forces. Good does not inevitably win and it must fight to survive and complicity will be its death.


5. Racial Supremacy is not the same as mere racism. One produces your politically incorrect uncle dave the other creates the Confederacy and the Nazi Party. White supremacy is intolerable in any civilized society and must be mercilessly dealt with before it gets out of control.

That's pretty much the end of this.

(December 18, 2022 at 3:13 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 18, 2022 at 4:17 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: I was pretty much called racist last time I brought up Kyrie and the black Hebrew Israelites and asked by Nudge, what about the white Hebrew Israelites? It's good that this issue is finally being talked about out in the open now. I believe this Ye thing was encouraged and spurred on by the religion of intersectionality, which claims that you can't be racist to people who are wealthier than you as a group AKA Jewish people, because you have no "systemic power" over them. It's nice that the board here seems to finally be tossing that idea aside, and we can mostly all agree that what Ye said was bad and racist, regardless of him holding this position technically because of white supremacy (and some of those white people happen to be Jewish as well) that has negatively affected people of his skin tone and caused him to hold a grudge against those groups of people. Yes, it's bad that white people and white Christians and white Jewish people have committed sins against other races, but that doesn't excuse Ye's rhetoric.

Criticism of the ADL is warranted I believe because the ADL is extremely anti-Muslim and majorly anti-free speech, so they bring much of the hate on themselves and they are harmful to their own Jewish people by being a bigoted organization who has chosen to go to war with Muslim politicians like Ilhan Omar with their despicable rhetoric and they are beyond irredeemable as an organization, so yeah, having a Jewish supremacist organization like the ADL go around shitting on Muslims and trying to censor everyone, that's only going to give us more people like Ye. When you refuse to criticize your own, that is a problem, and the ADL has not faced nearly enough backlash. Do people at record companies deserve criticism? Sure, but don't make it about their Jewishness. Power corrupts anyone. This has nothing to do with the essence of Jewishness, or Judaism, and most of them in the States are atheists anyhow.

Now onto my defense of Ye. He should be able to say whatever he wants. Continue on, Ye. I love that you have this right to speak. More podcasts from Ye and Nick Fuentes, please. Is he having a mental breakdown? Probably, but rumours say Ye has talked about admiring Hitler for years now. You could say it's a positive that the GOP is distancing itself from Trump more now finally because of this all, but it's really a negative because Trump wasn't going to win the general anyhow, and DeSantis is the fav over the Dems.

(bold mine)

He IS allowed to say whatever he wants. He can say whatever he wants, whenever he wants, to whomever he wants. Who is silencing Kayne? Has he been arrested for saying things? Has he been tried, convicted, fined or jailed for what he says? Has somebody torn his tongue out and it didn't make the news?

Boru

You'd have him blocked from seeing his children if you had it your way, so apparently you don't think he should be able to say whatever he wants, which is also the case with others on this site, so that's why I was mentioning that I support him being able to speak and being given a platform. It's better that we know what Ye believes than not, and that it's all out in the open now.

Quote:You'd have him blocked from seeing his children if you had it your way, so apparently you don't think he should be able to say whatever he wants, which is also the case with others on this site, so that's why I was mentioning that I support him being able to speak and being given a platform. It's better that we know what Ye believes than not, and that it's all out in the open now.

Social consequences for saying something doesn't stop him from speaking and not wanting children exposed to his antisemitism and frankly, his deranged behavior is valid. The right to say what you want doesn't entitle you to a platform and no it's not better it's out in the open he should shut his face and kept his opinions to himself.Kanye has not been silenced he's simply reaping what he sowed.