Value is a word without any meaning except in the sole context of how the things fit into men’s scheme to achieve some notional end state, and then it would have different value depending on the man, the scheme, and the end state.

So if the mere existence of infant is seen an contributing to some scheme with some end result, then the baby has value by merely being born.    This is what is normally meant by value of a life.

Sometimes value based on some influential men’s scheme to achieve some notional end state is imposed on lesser men, because the participation of lesser men in required to achieve the more the more influential men’s agenda.    This is the origin of “we hold these truth to be self evident, that all men are created equal….”

Quote: Life is the ultimate value but like all values, it has to be earned.

You can't earn life. It's not a commodity. This borderlines death penalty advocates when they go on about "life for life " as if life is something that can be exchanged. It's a rather sick and dehumanizing way of looking at other beings.

So\Life has some value without the possessor of the life having done anything to earn it because if otherwise unearned (by some standard) life can be taken away without fuss, then many other lives would also likely to be at somewhat greater jeopardy.     So in the purely reductionist view, the intrinsic value of a human A who has done nothing else of value to me is equal to the value of my own life, times the increase in probability that my own life will be take away because of the precedence set by the human A being capriciously killed.

“If you put no value whatsoever on his life, then I am less assured that you will put some value on mine”, regardless of what “He” had or had not done to earn his life.

(January 15, 2023 at 1:47 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Value is a word without any meaning except in the sole context of how the things fit into men’s scheme to achieve some notional end state, and then it would have different value depending on the man, the scheme, and the end state.

So if the mere existence of infant is seen an contributing to some scheme with some end result, then the baby has value by merely being born.    This is what is normally meant by value of a life.

Sometimes value based on some influential men’s scheme to achieve some notional end state is imposed on lesser men, because the participation of lesser men in required to achieve the more the more influential men’s agenda.    This is the origin of “we hold these truth to be self evident, that all men are created equal….”

I'm certainly willing to accept that "value" is a problematic word when applied to humans. It seems to me that we normally think of values as things that may be higher or lower based on some standard, and that implies the ranking of people based on some criteria. 

In the old days the criterion was social rank at birth, I suppose. Now it may be utilitarian productivity. 

But Kant argued that treating any person as a means rather than an end would be immoral, and I tend to agree. 

Where did the Founding Fathers get the concept of "created equal" from? Is it Locke?

(January 15, 2023 at 1:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(January 15, 2023 at 1:27 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Interesting. I don't see how this would work in practice. 

Like, a newborn baby has life, but has it somehow earned its life? Or is there some kind of grace period during which a child has to behave or perform so that it earns the right to continue? (And who would judge this? And what would happen if it failed?)

Likewise, all the bugs and plants in the world certainly have life, but how can I say that "this bug has earned its life"?

Agreed. If all value has to be ‘earned’ (whatever that means), then intrinsic value doesn’t exist.

Boru

No, intrinsic value does not exist, nor does subjective value. A value is some aspect of reality judged in relation to man's life.  It requires two things:  something to value and a valuer to value it.  Once again we see the implicitness of the axioms of existence and consciousness.  What I mean is that life is given to one by nature but one must act to gain or keep it.  That's what a value is, something we act to gain or keep and life is the only thing that makes values possible and it's the only thing that makes them necessary.  If you don't act to keep it, Your life ceases. That's what I mean by saying it has to be earned.  The very fact that you exist and are conscious is what makes that action possible.

(January 15, 2023 at 1:50 pm)Helios Wrote:

Quote: Life is the ultimate value but like all values, it has to be earned.

You can't earn life. It's not a commodity. This borderlines death penalty advocates when they go on about "life for life " as if life is something that can be exchanged. It's a rather sick and dehumanizing way of looking at other beings.

I disagree.  You have to act in order to keep it.  Life for a human is a completely volitional project.

(January 15, 2023 at 1:47 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Value is a word without any meaning except in the sole context of how the things fit into men’s scheme to achieve some notional end state, and then it would have different value depending on the man, the scheme, and the end state.

So if the mere existence of infant is seen an contributing to some scheme with some end result, then the baby has value by merely being born.    This is what is normally meant by value of a life.

Sometimes value based on some influential men’s scheme to achieve some notional end state is imposed on lesser men, because the participation of lesser men in required to achieve the more the more influential men’s agenda.    This is the origin of “we hold these truth to be self evident, that all men are created equal….”

Corecctamundo!  The concept of value presupposes the answers to the questions of value to whom and for what.  Absolutely correct.  At the stage of an infant the only value is to it's parents and others who value human life.  It has no intrinsic value.

(January 15, 2023 at 2:50 pm)Objectivist Wrote:

(January 15, 2023 at 1:50 pm)Helios Wrote: You can't earn life. It's not a commodity. This borderlines death penalty advocates when they go on about "life for life " as if life is something that can be exchanged. It's a rather sick and dehumanizing way of looking at other beings.

I disagree.  You have to act in order to keep it.  Life for a human is a completely volitional project.

The Sociopathy of objectivism of the Cult Of Rand on full display

Quote:Corecctamundo!  The concept of value presupposes the answers to the questions of value to whom and for what.  Absolutely correct.  At the stage of an infant the only value is to it's parents and others who value human life.  It has no intrinsic value.

The Sociopathy of objectivism of the Cult Of Rand on full display

(January 15, 2023 at 9:59 pm)Helios Wrote:

(January 15, 2023 at 2:50 pm)Objectivist Wrote: I disagree.  You have to act in order to keep it.  Life for a human is a completely volitional project.

The Sociopathy of objectivism of the Cult Of Rand on full display

Lol.