(March 30, 2023 at 10:02 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yeah, that is a clever meme. In all seriousness though, just because textual ambiguities allow for multiple interpretations of a text does not mean said text can mean whatever you want it to...unless you want to argue for a very extreme position of post-modern semiotics or a Borges-like fantasy world.

Yet strangely it seems very much like it is YOU who is the very one who insist it must mean whatever YOU want it to mean,  and seem to be morbidly afraid it might mean what it manifestly could mean.

(March 30, 2023 at 10:02 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yeah, that is a clever meme. In all seriousness though, just because textual ambiguities allow for multiple interpretations of a text does not mean said text can mean whatever you want it to...unless you want to argue for a very extreme position of post-modern semiotics or a Borges-like fantasy world.

What method do you and the various christian sects use to solve the textual ambiguities?
And if you have solved the textual ambiguities, then why haven’t you rewritten the Bible without those textual ambiguities?

I think that was part of my question a while back but you did not answer:
Is there an Adam and Eve? Were they in the Garden of Eden? Was there a talking snake? Was there a tree of knowledge of good and evil and a tree of life?

Why should magic book have a problem with fantasy worlds? Worlds either intended or winnowed down by eliminative processes to be those which are adaptable and reinterpretable? That's their utility, after all. The adam and eve story, for example, is pure fantasy. It's actually not one story but many stories jumbled together. Even if we believed that each individual author of each individual representative of the set of stories which eventually becomes the version in a magic book had a specific and singular intent, it would still not be the case that all of them had the exact same specific and singular intent. Crucially, the composite story with no actual specific and singular meaning is placed in a setting that is so broad and familiar, that even if we were to strip every supernatural element out of it - would still resonate as true or truth adjacent.

So, yes, because magic books both create and inhabit fantasy worlds - and insomuch as the magic book has survived, and survived in it's now-current form only because it can evade singular interpretations...I think it's safe to say that magic book both can and has meant whatever anyone has ever wanted it to.

That's the real tragedy of magic books. Whenever the people of a magic book decide to be shitty, they do so even though they could just as easily do otherwise.

(March 30, 2023 at 10:02 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yeah, that is a clever meme. In all seriousness though, just because textual ambiguities allow for multiple interpretations of a text does not mean said text can mean whatever you want it to...unless you want to argue for a very extreme position of post-modern semiotics or a Borges-like fantasy world.

Given that I was defending you, I guess this just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished.

(March 31, 2023 at 11:06 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: What method do you and the various christian sects use to solve the textual ambiguities?
And if you have solved the textual ambiguities, then why haven’t you rewritten the Bible without those textual ambiguities?

The thread started by pointing out a possible contradiction regarding the age of Lamech. My take was basically, "whatever", because the OP approaches the text from a modern scientific worldview that would have been foreign to the people who wrote the OT, i.e. ancient scribes using ancient literary conventions. The ancient writers made reference to pre-Copernican cosmology (Job 38, for example). They crafted historical narratives to reveal the character of their subjects, not to present precise timelines (the Gospels are like that). They adapted the stories of adjacent cultures to make unique theological points (Gen. 1) and referenced popular works that did not make it into the canon (1 Jude). And with respect to the OP, they used numbers both quantitatively and qualitatively. To me, it is either misguided or disingenuous to criticize the bible for not being a science book or because it doesn't give perfect chronological accounts.

If someone says he or she loves another "with all my heart", we know what they mean even if it is not scientifically accurate. So for example, the point being made in Job 38 is not that God created a crystal dome supported by solid pillars; but rather, that YHVH God is the creator, not Baal, not Marduk, . We do not need God to tell us about cosmology because he gave us eyes and brains to figure that out ourselves. This is NOT to say that the works are ONLY allegorical, symbolic, esoteric, or poetic because that would also be filtering the texts to explain away "problem texts".

Be all that as it may, the simple answer to your question, "What method do you and various Christian sects use to resolve textual ambiguities" the simple answer is everyone makes informed guesses. For example, there are reasonable cases to made for eternal punishment, annihilation, and universal salvation. IMHO each of these is allowable and each has its merits. But those decisions are based on looking at the primary sources to see where phases repeat or echo in different books, etc. Those differences are not IMHO justification for division within the fellowship.

(March 31, 2023 at 11:06 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I think that was part of my question a while back but you did not answer:
Is there an Adam and Eve? Were they in the Garden of Eden? Was there a talking snake? Was there a tree of knowledge of good and evil and a tree of life?

Yes, yes, no, maybe, maybe.

(March 31, 2023 at 6:36 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The thread started by pointing out a possible contradiction regarding the age of Lamech. My take was basically, "whatever", because the OP approaches the text from a modern scientific worldview

Thanks for the reply.

There isn’t anything scientific in the text. There isn’t anything wrong with the text.
The text says Lamech lived 777 y. What’s wrong with that?
It was a question of mathematics. That’s why I started this thread.
I made a mistake.
BrianSoddingBoru4 corrected the mistake.

Quote:The ancient writers made reference to pre-Copernican cosmology (Job 38, for example).

What about it?
Do you mean these lines?

Job 38:4 KING JAMES VERSION
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. {38:5} Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? {38:6} Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; {38:7} When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? {38:8} Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb? {38:9} When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, {38:10} And brake up for it my decreed [place,] and set bars and doors, {38:11} And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? {38:12} Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; [and] caused the dayspring to know his place; {38:13} That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? {38:14} It is turned as clay [to] the seal; and they stand as a garment. {38:15} And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

Quote:They adapted the stories of adjacent cultures to make unique theological points (Gen. 1)

Yes, humans do that kind of thing. For example, modern day humans decided that a stop sign should have an octagon shape and be red colored.
The color for stop should be red, green means go and amber means it is about to turn red.

Humans copy each other, whether it is religion, music, food, road rules, rules to govern a country, how to build houses, clothing style, etc.
There is no evidence for any gods in the Bible.

Quote:and referenced popular works that did not make it into the canon (1 Jude).

It is reasonable to think that the Bible is a human made product, just like a Timex watch, a Yamaha keyboard, an incandescent light bulb.

If you want to believe in aliens who made contact with humans, who once in a while help some humans, cause trouble for humans, pass on theological knowledge to humans, ...that is a nice fantasy that may or may not be true.

Quote:And with respect to the OP, they used numbers both quantitatively and qualitatively. To me, it is either misguided or disingenuous to criticize the bible for not being a science book or because it doesn't give perfect chronological accounts.

Is the Bible a history book? Which parts are history and which are not?

It depends on the viewing angle.
If you look at it from the view that this is the book of an ultra intelligent being called “the god”, then I would say that he cares about data and accuracy.
The jews that believe in these stories took it literally bc for them, that god is real and once in a while he really does interact with humans, helps them out, passes them information about the past.


For example, in Matthew 1:1, they give the lineage of Jesus. They started with Abraham and they reach David, which is number 14 in the list.
David is a very important person for the jews.
They continue until they reach Joseph, which is number 40. Number 41 is Jesus.
The father of Joseph is Jacob.

For example, in Luke 3:23, they give the lineage of Jesus. They started with Adam and they reach Abraham, which is number 21.
Abraham and they reach David, which is number 34 in the list.
David is a very important person for the jews.
They continue until they reach Joseph, which is number 72. Number 73 is Jesus.
The father of Joseph is Heli.

^^^^^How is it that they list Adam as a real person and also mention that he was created by the jewish god if Genesis is a fake story?
How is it that in one story, they say that Joseph’s father is Heli and in the other, they say his father is named Jacob.

So what is the solution? The apologist will claim that the text is true and that Jacob is the biological father and that the Heli is not. But where did they get this info from?


Luke 3:38 KING JAMES VERSION
Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

^^^^^In this example, they are going backwards until they reach Adam and they are essentially claiming that Adam is the first human directly made by the jewish god.


They always stop at Adam. They never claim that Adam had a mother and father. Here are more examples:

Romans 5:12 KING JAMES VERSION
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {5:13} For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {5:14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. {5:15} But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. {5:16} And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. {5:17} For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.



1 Corinthians 15:22 KING JAMES VERSION
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



1 Corinthians 15:45 KING JAMES VERSION
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.



1 Corinthians 15:45 KING JAMES VERSION
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.



1 Timothy 2:13 KING JAMES VERSION
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.



1 Timothy 2:14 KING JAMES VERSION
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


Jude 1:14 KING JAMES VERSION
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, {1:15} To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.



^^^^^So, what does a modern christian do? They try to merge science and their religion by claiming that Adam is the first human with a soul.

What does Romans, 1 Corinthians and all these guys tell us? Well, they are not going to tell you that he had a mother and father of course, because that is not what they believed.
They wrote down what they believed. They wrote down that the jewish god made Adam by blowing on some dirt.

You are claiming that the Bible is not a science book.
Correction, it is not a modern science book. But, for the limited science they had back then, and their belief in a magical god, it was all real history to them.


Matthew 24:36 KING JAMES VERSION
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man,] no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. {24:37} But as the days of Noe [were,] so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. {24:38} For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, {24:39} And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. {24:40} Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. {24:41} Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

^^^^^Noe is Noah.
Here, the author is telling us about events that will happen in the future and he inserts Noah and his ark story, how people were eating and marrying and so on.
It looks like he was talking about what is real history for him.



Luke 17:24 KING JAMES VERSION
For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. {17:25} But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. {17:26} And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. {17:27} They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. {17:28} Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; {17:29} But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. {17:30} Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. {17:31} In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. {17:32} Remember Lot’s wife. {17:33} Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. {17:34} I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. {17:35} Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. {17:36} Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. {17:37} And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

^^^^^The Noah flood story was believed as history.
The Lot’s wife story was taken as history and that is what he is telling here.
If Jesus is going to make up a false story, the text tells you. Look at 18:1


Luke 18:1 KING JAMES VERSION
And he spake a parable unto them [to this end,] that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; {18:2} Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: ....

^^^^^We know that judge is not real and what he does is not real because he just told you at 18:1.



Luke 2:1 KING JAMES VERSION
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. {2:2} And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. {2:3} And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. {2:4} For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; {2:5} And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person,] a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; {2:6} And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; {2:7} And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: {2:8} (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds {2:9} The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: {2:10} But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they,] selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

^^^^^The author is writing line after line facts, things that he believes are facts.
This has nothing to do with science. It has to do with history. The author is trying to document history.

He tells us that there are false prophets.
He says that the jewish god will destroy them.
They are going to lie.
The jewish god punished angels that sinned by throwing them down to hell. He locked them up and will judge them at a later date.
The jewish god saved Noah and his wife and 3 sons and their wives.
He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.


Why do you believe that there was no Garden of Eden and why are you not sure about the tree of knowledge of good and evil and a tree of life?

Are you more interested in exploring various ways to interpret those texts or are you insisting that the texts must be interpreted to justify your dismissal of them?

I think Neo-Scholastic said, far more eloquently than I will, why are you masturbating on the forums?

(April 1, 2023 at 11:37 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Are you more interested in exploring various ways to interpret those texts or are you insisting that the texts must be interpreted to justify your dismissal of them?

Yes, I am interested to know what your POV is.
You can respond to me, I will respond to you.
That is what the forum is for.

Insisting that I accept your fundamentalist heurmenutics of KJV snips is not a cobversation. I answered your questions. My turn. Again, why do you consider it valid to critique the bible for not being what you think it should be rather than what it is.?