(May 9, 2023 at 8:59 am)purplepurpose Wrote: I dislike USA hypocrisy. It likes to talk about democracy, freedom, international law. But at the same time as I quoted George Friedman here before, it acts as Empire.

Does that justify Russias invasion of Ukraine?
No?
Then why do you bring it up, over and over again?
The topic at hand is called "Russia and Ukraine", not "USA´s  hyporisy".  You may start to talk about US hypocrisy, after conceding that invading other countries is WRONG, period. Can you (does your political position even allow for this!) condem Russias invasion of another, sovereign country? Yes, or no?


Why is that your ilk is unable to adress this very simple issue, and condemn Russias actions before your start whatabouting with US´s misbehaviour or whatever. Have you ever seen any bad apologetics avoiding to comment on the christian gods love for slavery, and instead going to minimizing it or pointing out free will or mans sinfulness. Because thats exactly what you look/sound like.

Do you condemn invading other countries in general, and do you condemn Russias invasion of Ukraine in particular. Its no rocket science. Its not complicated. Its a simple Yes or no. "But the US...." is NOT relevant at all to this, and you know it.

(May 6, 2023 at 9:48 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(May 6, 2023 at 6:08 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: You are AOK with Russia getting away with annexing land just as I am. Crimea. Do you want to send in US troops to take back Crimea? No? Then you're ok with Russia annexing them, and you and I are not as different as you think. You do support awarding aggression with land. Unless, again, you want to send in US troops to take back Crimea by force.

Wrong. I am fine with Ukrainians retaking Crimea even as I don't wish to deploy American troops for that job. Put shortly, this is an excluded-middle fallacy on your part. One can support Ukraine's fight without pushing for American combat involvement -- and you will struggle long and hard to find any quote of mine supporting that. But go on, go look for it and link to what you find.

(May 6, 2023 at 6:08 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: China being pro-Russia is a good thing for peace talks. China need not be objective. It might scare Ukraine into coming to terms quicker, because Ukraine is looking over their shoulder right now thinking China might supply weapons to Russia. This gives Ukraine even more of a reason to come to peace, and at least China is trying to reach a peace deal, unlike the US.

Or it might make Ukraine think that it must score a victory now, which is likely what you fear. The idea that Ukraine might accept Chinese mediation, in the absence of a major Russian victory that endangers Ukrainian war aims, is naive, to put it kindly. A Chinese offer now, when the Russians are shooting themselves in the feet and their only friend is in fact China, would be spurned in Kyiv -- and rightly so -- for the bullshit it is.

Even if the Ukrainians lose on the field of battle, which I doubt will happen, but let's entertain that thought for a moment -- even if their army did lose, the ensuing insurgency would and will collapse Russia's government just as insurgency in Afghanistan brought about the end of the Soviet Union. If Russia wanted Chinese intervention in peace talks, why are they still launching missiles?

The Chinese proposal has little to do with Ukraine, and much to do with China wanting to see itself as some sort of arbiter. But they cannot project force into Ukraine, nor can they leverage either party to the table.So this is a stage-show.

But Thump the dictionary says you are okay with it...

In all seriousness, his comment is indeed a fallacy of the excluded middle Ukraine should at least try to retake Crimea or at the very least make the Russians wish they had never taken it. There is no "acceptance" in this position.

Hilariously, the main reason for occupying crimea has been made irrelevant by climate change. There's nothing behind russias war in ukraine except sunk cost at this point. Russia never needed the natural resources and they're not interested in the people. Invading ukraine does not and has not put NATO or the US further from their borders. The singular thing driving russian policy for decades or even centuries, an open port, is no longer operative. Russia invaded because of private interests, not the russian public or nations interests...and, if it even needs be said, not ukranian interests.

If we want to talk about empires, and the shittiness of empire, let's talk about that kind of empire. A private empire where the productivity and lives of many nations people are subjugated to the will of individuals safeguarding their personal bank accounts out in the ocean.

Russian Simp- the Pentagon Papers are the decisive deciders of the war and should be taken as gospel about the outcome 


Smart Person- Intelligence reports become obsolete if someone takes a fart and intelligence in a war can become outdated in the time it takes to eat a sandwich. The Pentagon Paper hysteria is bread and circus for mouth breathers with an agenda and are about as relevant to the final outcome of the war as my last cup of coffee.


Russian Simp- Your a Q anon Supporter for not blindly accepting the gospel of the Pentagon Papers or even questioning their validity because has modified leaked intelligence reports or released fake ones that were taken for real for weeks till they were exposed as false. Your the one acting like Trump and not me blindly accepting documents acquired under shady circumstances. 


Smart Person-No i just know what those kind of documents mean. The value of said documents,and i won't jump on the newest conspiracy fad. 


Russian Simp- Your like Donald Trump....Fake News....Accept the Pentagon Paper Gospel....The Dictionary...China Red Line.....I WANT PEACE AND AM NOT PRO RUSSIAN!

Quote:May 9 (Reuters) - The head of Russia's Wagner mercenary force fighting in eastern Ukraine said on Tuesday he had been told he and his men would be regarded as traitors if they abandoned their positions in the city of Bakhmut.

But Yevgeny Prigozhin said for the second time in a matter of days that his forces would leave Bakhmut if they did not receive the ammunition they needed to press the battle.

He delivered his latest tirade in a profanity-laced audio message which coincided with Russia marking the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany in World War Two with its traditional parade on Moscow's Red Square.

"A combat order came yesterday which clearly stated that if we leave our positions (in Bakhmut), it will be regarded as treason against the motherland. That was the message to us," Prigozhin said.

"(But) if there is no ammunition, then we will leave our positions and be the ones asking who is really betraying the Motherland. Apparently, the one (betraying the Motherland) is the person who signed it (the order to supply too little ammunition."

He said his forces would stay in Bakhmut and keep insisting they get their ammo "for a few more days".

Prigozhin has previously accused the defence ministry of deliberately starving his forces of ammunition. The ministry has said it is working to ensure all battlefield units have what they need.

Late on Monday, Prigozhin said there were signs the ammunition problem was being solved but on Tuesday he said the size of the shipment had been slashed.

"They've given us only 10% of what we asked for. We've been deceived," he said.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hea...023-05-09/

It would seem that in the internecine struggle between Wagner and the Russian MoD, knives have been drawn. I'm not sure if Russian combat efficiency can get any worse, but if it can, this could certainly be a powerful driver. There's an upper-story window awaiting the loser(s).

What is the point of this online forum masturbation? Will ukranians die less, if you post something here?

Quote:What is the point of this online forum masturbation? Will ukranians die less, if you post something here?

To talk about a subject. What's the point of any thread?

(May 9, 2023 at 9:26 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: A future archaeologist could have difficulty determining whether russia or the us invaded ukraine, if their primary sources about the war came from anti us commentary.

On that note, we can grant that the us sucks for purposes of elaboration.  I think the whole imperial us thing is the laziest and most absurd take on a russian land grab, but lets run with it.  It just so happens that, for once, the interests of the great satan actually do align with democracy, freedom, and international law.   If you believe in these things and believe in the great satan ukraine is not a reason to complain about the great satan, it's a rare example of relief to be put forward as an object lesson in doing things right for a change.

It remains to be seen whether or not we'll stick with it.

“You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”

― Winston Churchill (disputed)

(May 9, 2023 at 5:57 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(May 9, 2023 at 9:26 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: A future archaeologist could have difficulty determining whether russia or the us invaded ukraine, if their primary sources about the war came from anti us commentary.

On that note, we can grant that the us sucks for purposes of elaboration.  I think the whole imperial us thing is the laziest and most absurd take on a russian land grab, but lets run with it.  It just so happens that, for once, the interests of the great satan actually do align with democracy, freedom, and international law.   If you believe in these things and believe in the great satan ukraine is not a reason to complain about the great satan, it's a rare example of relief to be put forward as an object lesson in doing things right for a change.

It remains to be seen whether or not we'll stick with it.

“You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”

― Winston Churchill (disputed)

America itself is so exhausted and facing its final years in my perspective.
Probably that's why the global anti-American alliance (i.e Russia, China, Iran, North Korea) entered a global war against the U.S & its allies with Russia leading the war in the European front.


The U.S is the one being exhausted the most here, don't forget that a Russian agent became the president of the U.S even (cough cough; Trump).

Right. The US is being exhausted. Not russia and it's mercenary warcrimers. The US. Where will we ever find the empty fields for all of those dead american soldiers?