(May 9, 2023 at 6:20 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 9, 2023 at 5:57 pm)Angrboda Wrote: “You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”

― Winston Churchill (disputed)

America itself is so exhausted and facing its final years in my perspective.
Probably that's why the global anti-American alliance (i.e Russia, China, Iran, North Korea) entered a global war against the U.S & its allies with Russia leading the war in the European front.


The U.S is the one being exhausted the most here, don't forget that a Russian agent became the president of the U.S even (cough cough; Trump).

Nut.job.

FWIW, I postulated that the U.S. was on the long decline 20 years ago, primarily due to the original bounty of natural resources having created an economy that could not be sustained once the surplus from those natural resources began to run out, in line with the exhaustion of those resources. WWII gave our economy a temporary reprieve, but since the 50s, we've been on the downward slope.

Quote:America itself is so exhausted and facing its final years in my perspective

Idiots like you have been saying that for 80 years and every time you have been wrong. So shove it. 

Quote:Probably that's why the global anti-American alliance (i.e Russia, China, Iran, North Korea) entered a global war against the U.S & its allies with Russia leading the war in the European front.

There is no global war and calling a bunch of people who hate each other and work against each other as much as they do an alliance is laughable

Quote:The U.S is the one being exhausted the most here, don't forget that a Russian agent became the president of the U.S even (cough cough; Trump).

No, it freaking isn't. If Vietnam couldn't destroy the United States this sure as hell won't. The only loser here is going to be Russia and they are going to lose BIG.

I don't see this current situation as being terribly exhausting to America. I agree with Paul Kennedy that imperial overstretch and over-investment in military projects (which are notably unproductive at the national level) does more to weaken America. He wrote, in 1988, of the "oncoming multipolar world", which we are seeing unfold now. We Americans have passed our high-point in terms of global strategic impact, I think. But I'm pretty sure we're still relevant and will remain so for quite some time.

That's likely a thread all its own, but I think the strength of a nation is more accurately measured by economics, rather than the projection of force, unless you're actually shooting it out. That's the lure of militarism, and also its Achilles' Heel. It seems to me that like fascist Germany and impero-fascist Japan struggling to gain relevance, Russia is self-immolating in an attempt to remain relevant. Putin doesn't seem to understand the damage his gamble is doing to the country, and that whether they "win" or lose in Ukraine, these last fifteen months have cost them a couple of decades of sway astride the global stage ... in my humble opinion. Even if he "wins" here, Russia will likely be so reliant upon China economically and militarily as to be neutered. And that's exactly what he wasn't trying to project with this invasion.

'merica #1 . Hell yeah. 

I think you might be missing the point entirely? It's not that america #1 (we are, ofc)...but that "americabad" is not exactly a concern in this particular conflict unless we're wondering whether we'll stick with them.

(May 10, 2023 at 10:03 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I think you might be missing the point entirely?  It's not that america #1 (we are, ofc)...but that "americabad" is not exactly a concern in this particular conflict unless we're wondering whether we'll stick with them.

I think, we should gather those kudos on this topic and smart posts and ship them straight to ukranians. They really need them.

They do. Ukraine very much needs for the world to see the russian invasion for what it is. They can't rely indefinitely on the perfidy of sometimes friends like americabad, eh?

Or, let's put it another way? Would Vlad the Master Strategist be spending so many of his cutrate rubles ( to say nothing of russias tarnished credibility....) on disinformation campaigns if he didn't think that churning out useful idiots in other countries was one of the only ways he "wins" this war...?

(May 10, 2023 at 9:45 am)purplepurpose Wrote: 'merica #1 . Hell yeah. 

English much? This is a gross misreading of my post directly above yours.

(May 10, 2023 at 10:11 am)purplepurpose Wrote:

(May 10, 2023 at 10:03 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I think you might be missing the point entirely?  It's not that america #1 (we are, ofc)...but that "americabad" is not exactly a concern in this particular conflict unless we're wondering whether we'll stick with them.

I think, we should gather those kudos on this topic and smart posts and ship them straight to ukranians. They really need them.

If posting about it is useless, what are you doing in this thread? You're obviously concerned enough to argue against the points made here. But just as clearly, you haven't thought through your points, or the implications of your alleged apathy.

But hey, at least you get to feel superior today. Self-esteem for the win!

You guys bickering about that stuff are cute.
On the one hand, Russia invading another country is bad and should be properly condemned and the invaded country should be helped to repeal the attack. That much is obvious and I don't think anyone would claim otherwise...
However, would "the world"[tm] do the same if it was another relatively large country attacking one of its neighbors? I think the answer would be "depends"... which makes it a morally iffy situation.
That leads us to assume that the US (and other NATO countries) have some extra interest (beyond the moral) in Ukraine... or in keeping Ukraine away from Russian interference.
Which also leads to the question of why did Russia attack Ukraine? For influence? As a show of strength? For resources? All of the above?

Anyway... all this to say that no country (or alliance) is a saint in the world, but I agree that we should aim towards that goal, while being aware of the threats from others who are not interested in that.
Keeping on the grand scheme of things, and imagining a future where all the regions of the world manage to come togheter and work under a single "terran organization", how would such a thing look like?
- Like an oligarchy where a few chosen by the top man hold all the cards? the russian system.
- Like a central comitee that decides on to overarching policies, while giving local authorities some leeway to try new things? the chinese system.
- Like a socialized system where people pay a relatively high tax rate on their income, but then get free or near-free access to "basic" things like healthcare, education, utilities, etc.? the european system
- Like a free market capitalist society where money talks the loudest? the US system.
- Like a military regime? as so many countries in Africa and South America...(?)
- Like Big Brother in 1984?
- Something else?

I think, depending on how you envisage that humanity should be organized polically, socially, economically, etc., you will place yourself in one of these camps... and I would expect each of us to have a preference for whichever system we grew up in.
I think the european system is the better of those, but I'm not convinced it can be applied equally around the world...mostly because I don't know just how much of this system depends on the influx of cheap things manufactured in places that do not have such a system implemented.

If our preferred system can be applied equally everywhere, how should that implementation look like? How is the passage from individual states to a worldwide state going to happen?
If it happens through war, it will probably bring about opposing factions and it will be a never ending conflict. This is one reason to stamp out this tactic as soon as it arises... can we say that Ukraine's invasion is an attempt by the Russian government to go in that direction? Possibly... And again, there is one more reason to help Ukraine to get rid of the invader. War should not be a necessity for a civilized society.
That said, similar conflicts should be equally curtailed elsewhere.

If it happens through diplomacy and the desire for interconnectedness and friendship, then there is hope for success... a bit like what the UN is doing, but more.
Can mankind reach such a state and be at peace with it? Or will there always be contrarians and despots that want to have things their own way?