I totally agree.

Since I don't believe freewill exists I don't think anyone is morally culpable for anything.

But in the more colloquial sense I totally agree that if you've given it a genuine fair try for some time and got nowhere, then that's all you can do.

I also agree that there's a fair few incels who are under 18, which is a more complex story than when talking about lonely adults. The trouble there is, as I discovered, if you're an ugly or social inept teenager you will most likely be bullied and traumatised for it. You won't be given any opportunity for normal social development. I think a lot of lonely bitter incel type adults were locked into that mindset by adolescent expereinces and never found a way out. Their whole life went on a different trajectory because of how a few teenage girls treated them when they were vulnerable and naive 14 year olds. Sad.

The incel situation isn't simply due to a misfortune with not looking good (many of these self-professed incels I've seen are quite good looking actually) nor mainly because of loneliness. It's disordered thinking, so mainly about personality/neurodevelopment issues. It may be they got rejected a few times, and because of their irrational and egotistical way of thinking, attribute this to women being shitty. It may be they're always going for the "wrong" types of women, and doing "nice" things for them (while secretly expecting sexual favors in return), and then they get rejected/"friendzoned" each time, which builds up the bitterness against women in general. It may even just be a twisted way of seeking validation for themselves by putting themselves out there as incels, just out of spite against women. Maybe women do express interest in them, but they brush it off as them being slutty because these incels want to make the first move. Whatever the case may be, there is a lot of misogyny involved in their way of thinking.

Again, I've seen ugly people in relationships. Clearly, their looks aren't stopping them from being in relationships. Must be something else.

And no, it's not victim blaming because incels aren't victims. Or at least not moreso than anyone else in general.

I agree there's lots of sexism and other nastiness in incel circles. But not every incel is like that.

Most lonely men who have failed to find success in dating, in my expereince, who may or may not describe themself as an incel (and increasingly they do because of the internet), are routinely rejected by women primarily because they are physically unattractive and/or socially inept (which is often due to trauma or neurodiversity).

It becomes a downward spiral for many: they received a lot of bullying or rejection for their ugliness and/social ineptness as an adolescent, they lost confidence and failed to develop their social skills, they became lonely, they withdrew, their weirdness and lack of social skills got them more rejected, they became more mentally ill and more lonely and more withdrawn, and so on. They are often bitter at their persecutors. Some find themselves drawn into online incel groups which feed them with sexism and violent rhetoric.

It is hard, I expect, to escape such a radicalisation if you are a bitter, traumatised, lonely, mentally ill, young person online. But the start was often ugliness and/or social ineptness with its roots in bad genetics and/or bad life circumstance.

I've seen ugly people in relationships too. But I've seen plenty of ugly people not in relationships also. I've also never seen an ugly man with an attractive woman. Being ugly makes dating life much more difficult. For some it never works out. For some the bad treatment they recieve make them crazy. For some they escape. They all suffer. It's all mostly luck imho.

(August 23, 2023 at 9:26 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I imagine all these pictures of questionable looking men with relatively attractive women are celebrities and they're far from average.  Besides the fame and fortune they're also idolized and usually bring some sort of elite level talent into the mix which is usually found attractive.

That's rather the point: that attraction is not purely or even primarily physical. Or as we'd say when I was younger, "she went from a ten to a two as soon as she opened her mouth."

(August 23, 2023 at 4:25 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: Well, it's true, lol.  I accept that in a world of 8 billion there will be all kinds of odd outliers.

But, to be clear, in my personal.lived experience (for as little as that counts), I've never seen (in real.life) an ugly man with an attractive woman (except for prostitution).

Well, that settles that!

(August 23, 2023 at 4:25 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I also think it plain common sense that looks matters more than all other things as far as general dating success goes.

You mean like how it's obvious that the Sun goes around the Earth? It's an attractor, sure.

(August 23, 2023 at 4:25 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: And looks forms the hard barrier to dating: hardly anyone dates someone they are physically repulsed by: you have to meet a minimum looks threshold to date.  No other single factor seems to carry the same weight of influence.

It's the most visible factor, sure. And if you want a series of dates rather than a long-term relationship, sure, looks are the most important.

(August 23, 2023 at 4:25 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I think lookism and halo effect are real things.

They are, sure. I just think you're overstating their importance.

(August 23, 2023 at 4:25 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: And I think all that matches the core of the BP idea when stripped of its weird hyperbolic rhetoric and sexism.

That's because they focus on what they cannot change rather than what they can.

(August 23, 2023 at 4:25 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: And I think it a genuine societal problem to have a bunch of people whose basic psychological needs are going unmet, who are suffering, who are often mentally ill, because of bad genetic luck, and who are forming communities online where they stir each other up with rhetorical excesses.

What would you suggest?

(August 24, 2023 at 12:11 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: The incel situation isn't simply due to a misfortune with not looking good (many of these self-professed incels I've seen are quite good looking actually) nor mainly because of loneliness. It's disordered thinking, so mainly about personality/neurodevelopment issues. 

When I was overseas, I would see whole packs of Halle Berrys walking around, and then they would smile and their tongues looked like caged birds.

I can see how an incel might look great until they open their mouth.

@thunp

We basically agree on everything except me overstating the importance of looks.

What would I suggest?
First, that it's recognised as a real issue and not just treated as something amusing and /or trivial.

Second, that it's recognised that it's not a question of moral blame or character failure, but that ugliness, neurodiversity, and social ineptiude are bad luck problems (like physical disability). And also understood just how much of a killer and damage to the economy and society loneliness truly is.

Third, I would suggest that educational establishments recognise bullying more, even treating lookism bullying as a hate act like racism, ableism and homophobia, and nip that stuff early.

Fourth, I would suggest awareness raising of the issue in an effort to encourage parents, schools, and the state to organise appropriate early intervention counselling and therapy for young people who show signs of being socially and romantically ostracised for their looks and social ineptitude.

Fifth, in socialised medical states (like the UK) I would encourage loneliness to be seen as a serious health issue, increase mental health provision and early intervention for adults, improve social prescriptions, and encourage a more serious consideration of ugliness in terms akin to scarring, disfigurement, gender dysphoria, etc and have more surgical and medical interventions available.

Sixth, aim to destigmatise pseudo-relationships, like objectum relationships, chatbots, sexdolls, etc. through media representation and the such like. Also put investment into the betterment of companion bot/ hologram/ AI/ VR technology.

Seventh, legalise and regulate sex work.

Eighth, clamp down on the sexist hatespeech and radicalising rhetoric of incel groups using whatever laws are appropriate.

I'm open to other suggestions.

(August 24, 2023 at 1:08 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: @thunp

We basically agree on everything except me overstating the importance of looks.  

What would I suggest?
First, that it's recognised as a real issue and not just treated as something amusing and /or trivial.

Second, that it's recognised that it's not a question of moral blame or character failure, but that ugliness, neurodiversity, and social ineptiude are bad luck problems (like physical disability).  And also understood just how much of a killer and damage to the economy and society loneliness truly is.

Third, I would suggest that educational establishments recognise bullying more, even treating lookism bullying as a hate act like racism, ableism and homophobia, and nip that stuff early.

Fourth, I would suggest awareness raising of the issue in an effort to encourage parents, schools, and the state to organise appropriate early intervention counselling and therapy for young people who show signs of being socially and romantically ostracised for their looks and social ineptitude.

Fifth, in socialised medical states (like the UK) I would encourage loneliness to be seen as a serious health issue, increase mental health provision and early intervention for adults, improve social prescriptions, and encourage a more serious consideration of ugliness in terms akin to scarring, disfigurement, gender dysphoria, etc and have more surgical and medical interventions available.

Sixth, aim to destigmatise pseudo-relationships, like objectum relationships, chatbots, sexdolls, etc. through media representation and the such like.  Also put investment into the betterment of companion bot/ hologram/ AI/ VR technology.

Seventh, legalise and regulate sex work.

Eighth, clamp down on the sexist hatespeech and radicalising rhetoric of incel groups using whatever laws are appropriate.

I'm open to other suggestions.

We only disagree on the weight you're giving to physical appearance. Speaking for myself, I'm physically disabled in such a way that imparts a noticeable limp. In the ten years since I developed my AVN, two lovely relationships lasting a total of five years. There's a couple of reasons for this: 1) I don't take rejection personally; 2) I don't get discouraged because I understand the odds are against me; 3) I understand that women are real people with real feelings and may simply not find me attractive.

I could easily have been an incel as a youth. Absolutely no success with gals in high school, bullied as a boy due to being the new kid all the time (8 schools in 12 years). But I got and heeded some good advice, and my luck with gals got a lot better.

I think incels place entirely too much emphasis on looks, sex, and sexual objectification, and refuse to see women as people; women exist to serve male entitlements. And women can smell a shitty attitude a mile away.

Blaming women for men who are less than attractive for their inability to find a sex partner is pretty fucking sexist.

It doesn't matter what a woman looks like - she doesn't owe any guy sex. Period, end of story.

You are rightthere on the line of saying that incels are some group that needs hugs....even though the talk and actions of some has been violent, scary, and is not to be accepted or excused away.

I knew a guy who took rule no1 and 2 to heart so much that it was his entire mo to ask 100 girls out every night. I never saw him without a date. He was the shortest, ugliest, scrunchy face looking motherfucker I've ever met, and he got more play 1-10 than me by an order of magnitude. He wasn't even a nice enough guy to go with rule three - he was a douchebro before it was cool to be a douchebro, and it didn't seem to matter.

Honestly, girls aren't that picky.

Once, I saw him with two dates.......motherfucker!