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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:29 pm
(October 17, 2023 at 1:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well, consider the alternative. Thinking for Yourself™ - which is to say having a wholly disparate viewpoint from your people.
-but what are you going to do with it?
People thinking for themselves doesn't really amount to change in the world. That's the advantage that religiosity has over independant thinking, and it's not inconsequential.
Right. And if people had been independent thinkers from the start, there would be no need for religiosity.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:31 pm
(This post was last modified: October 17, 2023 at 1:32 pm by ShinyCrystals.)
(October 17, 2023 at 1:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well, consider the alternative. Thinking for Yourself™ - which is to say having a wholly disparate viewpoint from your people.
-but what are you going to do with it?
People thinking for themselves doesn't really amount to change in the world. That's the advantage that religiosity has over independant thinking, and it's not inconsequential.
I see. I understand. I mean, there are more factors to changing the world, anyway. I do believe that thinking for oneself, or more accurately, having the right education is a good first step; even if it is not the only first step. Change in world require effort, dedication, and being able (as well as being willing to be able) to overcome the opposition and resistances one faces to make a change happen. I mean, as sad as it may be, opposition is not only always going to be there, but is necessary to overcome as well as build oneself in terms of strength and other things. You can't put in effort if there is going to be no effort to put in after all. But yes, given how non-simple this world is despite how many people want it to be or would see it as simple, thinking on one's own won't be enough to make a change in the world as you said.
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:33 pm
(This post was last modified: October 17, 2023 at 1:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 17, 2023 at 1:29 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (October 17, 2023 at 1:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well, consider the alternative. Thinking for Yourself™ - which is to say having a wholly disparate viewpoint from your people.
-but what are you going to do with it?
People thinking for themselves doesn't really amount to change in the world. That's the advantage that religiosity has over independant thinking, and it's not inconsequential.
Right. And if people had been independent thinkers from the start, there would be no need for religiosity.
..as predicted - bullshit. The need for religiosity has nothing to do with independent thought. Simply that the world was/is not as it should be by anyone's reckoning - rightly or wrongly, independent or indoctrinated.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:39 pm
(October 17, 2023 at 1:33 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (October 17, 2023 at 1:29 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Right. And if people had been independent thinkers from the start, there would be no need for religiosity.
..as predicted - bullshit. The need for religiosity has nothing to do with independent thought. Simply that the world was/is not as it should be by anyone's reckoning - rightly or wrongly, independent or indoctrinated.
It's not "bullshit", it's just how I see things. Not everything you or anyone else says is automatically the only relevant truth in existence. Sounds like playing "religious leader" to me.
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:42 pm
You want to know what else can be taught? Emotions, or learning how to control them, of course. It probably does not make a change in the world like how independent thought does not, but I also think that would be another first step among independent thinking and other things to making a change in the world. I mean, with better control over emotions, we could control ourselves better if more people did such a thing, and we could at least become better people if we did that and other things.
I have had to learn to control my emotions well over the course of my life.
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:49 pm
(October 17, 2023 at 1:39 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (October 17, 2023 at 1:33 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: ..as predicted - bullshit. The need for religiosity has nothing to do with independent thought. Simply that the world was/is not as it should be by anyone's reckoning - rightly or wrongly, independent or indoctrinated.
It's not "bullshit", it's just how I see things. Not everything you or anyone else says is automatically the only relevant truth in existence. Sounds like playing "religious leader" to me.
Yes, it's bullshit, how you see things™ is bullshit. Tee me up another easy one?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:50 pm
(This post was last modified: October 17, 2023 at 1:52 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 17, 2023 at 1:42 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: You want to know what else can be taught? Emotions, or learning how to control them, of course. It probably does not make a change in the world like how independent thought does not, but I also think that would be another first step among independent thinking and other things to making a change in the world. I mean, with better control over emotions, we could control ourselves better if more people did such a thing, and we could at least become better people if we did that and other things.
I have had to learn to control my emotions well over the course of my life.
Two arrows, eh? Maybe we cant help that the arrow hits us, but we can help how we feel about it (or can we?).
I want to put another pin in the idea of independent thought as a good unto itself. All the shit you think is bad thought very much started out as some independent thought. Some weirdo talking shit. We can independently fuck up.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:53 pm
(October 17, 2023 at 1:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (October 17, 2023 at 1:42 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: You want to know what else can be taught? Emotions, or learning how to control them, of course. It probably does not make a change in the world like how independent thought does not, but I also think that would be another first step among independent thinking and other things to making a change in the world. I mean, with better control over emotions, we could control ourselves better if more people did such a thing, and we could at least become better people if we did that and other things.
I have had to learn to control my emotions well over the course of my life.
Two arrows, eh? Maybe we cant help that the arrow hits us, but we can help how we feel about it (or can we?).
I want to put another pin in the idea of independent thought as a good unto itself. All the shit you think is bad thought very much started pout as some independent thought.
Yep, pretty much. I can definitely see that being the case. Still, controlling emotions, and maybe learning to control things is not an easy thing, perhaps more so than developing independent thought. There are also internal factors in the mind that may make it even more difficult to do so, as well as maybe mental disorders and such.
Still, things like that can be overcome. If only there was a good way to motivate people to try. Not that the world will change by that alone, but like I said, it is one of the first steps.
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 1:59 pm
The idea that things like that can be overcome is, itself, religious ideation. It's not a picture of the world as it is, but the world as it ought to be.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
October 17, 2023 at 2:03 pm
(October 17, 2023 at 1:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The idea that things like that can be overcome is, itself, religious ideation. It's not a picture of the world as it is, but the world as it ought to be.
Yeah, that makes sense. I did not at all say it would be easy, though. In fact, I say it would be very hard. Maybe it would be dependent on the person, but in all cases, it would still be hard, nonetheless.
But yeah, it is what the world ought to be regardless. I can see that if overcoming things weren't enough, thinking that more people can control themselves emotionally, whether it is easy or hard, still fits as a religious ideation. Then again, I think wanting a better world through change is a religious ideation, is it not?
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